I also really want a Haven 2!

Or a nice expansion for the first game. Or (almost) anything that has more Haven in it!

fam you are the one who should be doing a sequel, in your head that is. given how open ended and morally ambiguous the two story conclusions are, it's really up to you to ferment in it and make up how you feel the story goes on for either of the endings.

another Haven game that follows yu and kay again would just undermine the profound endings they already got, and should the devs decide to go for new protagonists, it'd just be a huge head scratcher as there's not much left to say about the whole relationships shenanigans

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

fam you are the one who should be doing a sequel, in your head that is. given how open ended and morally ambiguous the two story conclusions are, it's really up to you to ferment in it and make up how you feel the story goes on for either of the endings.

another Haven game that follows yu and kay again would just undermine the profound endings they already got, and should the devs decide to go for new protagonists, it'd just be a huge head scratcher as there's not much left to say about the whole relationships shenanigans

I most respectfully disagree with this.

First of all, I really enjoyed the gameplay of Haven, but the replay value of the game is very limited given the structure of the story. You cannot explore areas you are not meant to unless you trigger a specific story progression (normally a specific objective on a specific islet). So while there is some value in re-exploring the same story again, it's more like re-watching a good movie, and less like re-playing an interactive game. More story content in one form or another would be great to allow more playtime.

Second of all, the game seems very literal in everything, and the ending(s) are also, as far as I can tell, completely literal. I see no ambiguity and also there's nothing to really ponder or think about. The endings of this game are like the cork on the bottle for me, they are there because every bottle needs a cork. You have a "bad" ending and a "good" ending, and like the Yin/Yang Taoist symbol there is a little bit of good in the bad one and a little bit of bad in the good one. But at least to me, there was no meaningful tie-in with the actual gameplay experience.

I also think there are many avenues left unexplored that personally interest me, off the top of my head, having given it one minute of thought, here are some:
- How would Yu & Kay deal with having children on a remote place
- Could they meaningfully impact society and bring about change to accept their non-standard relationship
- Is there any other magical part of the known world that is left to be explored
- Is there an evolutionary step for organisms that is tied in to rust
- What would happen in 5, 10 years after the game, how would they cope with what has happened

You can even embrace having two endings by alternating between two "worlds" for each ending, and one of them is real and the other is dreamed. Might run into budget constraints though...

The thing is, the world is interesting, the gameplay is fun, it would be a pity not to put in more work because I think the end result would be still enjoyable.

And if someone honestly feels like Haven 1 was perfect as is and needs no expansion or sequel, I can totally respect that, they always have the option of not purchasing any follow-up content. For me personally... I would love to spend more time in this world in a meaningful way.

(I know it's most likely not happening. I'm not actually having my hopes up. I'm making a point more for the sake of expressing my thoughts, not because it would impact anything.)

Originally posted by Kira:

Second of all, the game seems very literal in everything, and the ending(s) are also, as far as I can tell, completely literal. I see no ambiguity and also there's nothing to really ponder or think about. The endings of this game are like the cork on the bottle for me, they are there because every bottle needs a cork. You have a "bad" ending and a "good" ending, and like the Yin/Yang Taoist symbol there is a little bit of good in the bad one and a little bit of bad in the good one. But at least to me, there was no meaningful tie-in with the actual gameplay experience.

My take that follows stems from a playthrough as a male homosexual couple. The "good" ending feels rather bitterwseet to me, particularly in the sense that the injured partner is very likely hiding the gravity of their condition. As the game concludes, the hyper rust crystals remain very under-studied, and even though we are reassured that the condition is under control, I somewhat doubt that everything is as it seems. For one, comparing the crystals immediately after the injury and in the epilogue, in my case on Kay, we see that the crystals have continued growing and taking over more of his body.

https://imgur.com/a/dtSu7T5

I sincerely doubt that the injured person will live out the rest of their life normally. The implication here is probably that they have a few good years left to enjoy with their partner, and afterwards they will likely get seriously ill and pass away. Then, we are left with a grim scenario where the remaining partner gets to bury them and live in solitude on Source for the rest of their life. For me, that would be Yu, and given how clingy and unstable he gets at times, and the fact that he is explicitly given a suicide dialogue option early on, he will probably choose to take his own life soon thereafter. Perhaps in the straight couple scenario where Kay is affected and passes, one could picture a future where female Yu is left with a child -- that is what I would hope for.

The flipside is the so-called "bad" ending where there is not much left to fill in other than the morality of what could follow. Ozias suggests that recalibration is a last resort, and while it is explicitly shown that Yu gets recalibrated, it is unclear whether Kay in fact underwent the procedure. I believe that Kay chooses to comply, given his strong pro-order sentiments expressed at various points in the game, and lives on knowing everything that had happened and that Yu is at least alive somewhere out there, which is enough for him given the circumstances. Meanwhile, Yu clearly has a deja vu when he sees a spaceship similar to the Nest. Indeed, as Kay had said on Source, they could never fully forget one another, and while we are left with the idea that the two of them might find each other and fall in love again, it's hard to say whether they should. Put in perspective, their time on Source had been more of a youthful rebellion, and the life that follows is their actual adulthood where they take responsibility within the Apiary, as parents and partners. It's a hard sell that their fantasy deserves to come to life again.

And with all that in mind, for the life of me I couldn't decide which ending is genuinely the better one.

Originally posted by Kira:

And if someone honestly feels like Haven 1 was perfect as is and needs no expansion or sequel, I can totally respect that, they always have the option of not purchasing any follow-up content. For me personally... I would love to spend more time in this world in a meaningful way.

Make no mistake, I love this game and wouldn't mind seeing more, yet the idea itself of having more Haven feels rather superfluous given what we've already got.

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

My take that follows stems from a playthrough as a male homosexual couple. The "good" ending feels rather bitterwseet to me, particularly in the sense that the injured partner is very likely hiding the gravity of their condition. As the game concludes, the hyper rust crystals remain very under-studied, and even though we are reassured that the condition is under control, I somewhat doubt that everything is as it seems.

I agree that the impression given is that the injured person (also Kay in my first game ) is downplaying the injury. That said, we have seen lots of local creatures be impacted by Rust and cleansed of it. Maybe it's somehow different this time (perhaps because of the heat present when the injured person was infused with Rust), but considering that the person did not get fully infused with rust and did not become aggressive like the local rust-infested creatures implies to me that this is more like a symbiotic relationship.

I could sooner imagine the person developing some sort of futuristic super-power like learning to control rust particles through thought, than dying to the rust crystal formations.

Then again, it almost doesn't matter, because the planet will anyway fall off orbit and blow up in a sun...

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

Perhaps in the straight couple scenario where Kay is affected and passes, one could picture a future where female Yu is left with a child -- that is what I would hope for.

I assume this far into the future gender no longer plays a significant role in reproduction. So a same-sex couple having their own children is probably the norm. Which would tie in nicely with the idea that there's more to the story - if you think falling in forbidden love and defying the whole world around you is tough, wait till you have a toddler messing around.

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

The flipside is the so-called "bad" ending where there is not much left to fill in other than the morality of what could follow. Ozias suggests that recalibration is a last resort, and while it is explicitly shown that Yu gets recalibrated, it is unclear whether Kay in fact underwent the procedure. I believe that Kay chooses to comply, given his strong pro-order sentiments expressed at various points in the game, and lives on knowing everything that had happened and that Yu is at least alive somewhere out there, which is enough for him given the circumstances. Meanwhile, Yu clearly has a deja vu when he sees a spaceship similar to the Nest. Indeed, as Kay had said on Source, they could never fully forget one another, and while we are left with the idea that the two of them might find each other and fall in love again, it's hard to say whether they should. Put in perspective, their time on Source had been more of a youthful rebellion, and the life that follows is their actual adulthood where they take responsibility within the Apiary, as parents and partners. It's a hard sell that their fantasy deserves to come to life again.

And with all that in mind, for the life of me I couldn't decide which ending is genuinely the better one.

Interesting thoughts! Call me romantic, but I never thought that separating from your love can in any way be a good ending. My personal experience with love in my life can be summed up as defying all odds together, making things work despite everything, and accepting the losses/sacrifices that come with it. A woman having kids can have such a huge impact on her body that honestly a few crystals sticking out of her skin can easily feel like a minor inconvenience in comparison... You're going to have to accept that choosing a partner for life means that - if all goes well - you guys will grow old and die together, losing a lot of what used to define you to age, kids, circumstances, everything.

I guess, if I really want to find a philosophical angle to the endings, I could say that the "good" ending means you guys are together but you don't know what will happen, you might die or lose each-other, which would be a huge blow to someone who has found their true love; whereas walking away from that relationship to be with some other person instead means you are no longer exposed to the horror of having found true love only to risk losing it, because you chose to lose it on your terms. If you ask me, this just reinforces how bad this ending is.

Now, I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote in another post, but I must add that I feel that the endings kind of suck, because they are a totally different genre compared to the gameplay. Hence my cork example above. Which means that I would also be totally fine just ditching the endings and doing something else instead - like, Haven 2 being about how Kay and Yu realize that they have like half a dozen other options beside putting their hands up and surrendering to the Apiary, and going head-first into a pool of molten rust-lava.

?

Originally posted by Kira:

I agree that the impression given is that the injured person (also Kay in my first game ) is downplaying the injury. That said, we have seen lots of local creatures be impacted by Rust and cleansed of it. Maybe it's somehow different this time (perhaps because of the heat present when the injured person was infused with Rust), but considering that the person did not get fully infused with rust and did not become aggressive like the local rust-infested creatures implies to me that this is more like a symbiotic relationship.

I could sooner imagine the person developing some sort of futuristic super-power like learning to control rust particles through thought, than dying to the rust crystal formations.

I'd imagine that they would've started looking for a solution immediately without wasting any time to develop something as ridiculous as the flower boots, so there's probably nothing they could do to remove the infection. Hyper-rust is clearly different from the normal rust that infects native fauna, as it appears to be the desired product of the Apiary's efforts to condense flow for later transport. However, it remains unclear whether the scientists ever figured out a way to decompress the red crystals back into normal flow, and even so, it's unlikely that any relevant research survived on Source, or that Kay would be able to arrive at a method on his own.

The crystals probably grow in size and cover more body surface as they attract more flow, either from the infected person's suit or from the threads they travel on, so given the reliance on flow, the infection really seems like a one-way road. We also saw that some of the creatures found in the game were made entirely of rust as they disappeared after being pacified, suggesting that a burst of flow destroyed them entirely, and while Kay's hyper-rust accumulates flow and grows instead of dissipating, it still gives us an idea of how he could be changing as the rust creatures were likely normal animals at some point. Given everything we know about the universe, I doubt any super-power-like stuff would ever come into play, as humans seem to be grounded in their natural physiological capabilities and desires -- the lore unapologetically leans towards hard sci-fi with social realism as opposed to fantasy.

Originally posted by Kira:

Then again, it almost doesn't matter, because the planet will anyway fall off orbit and blow up in a sun...

Yeah then there's that, the writers just won't give them a break haha

Originally posted by Kira:

I assume this far into the future gender no longer plays a significant role in reproduction. So a same-sex couple having their own children is probably the norm. Which would tie in nicely with the idea that there's more to the story - if you think falling in forbidden love and defying the whole world around you is tough, wait till you have a toddler messing around.

True, but I find the idea that Yu has been rolling around with some space magic reproductive incubator in that top shelf by the lobby kinda unlikely, and I don't recall the idea of having children around on Source ever being mentioned, though I might be wrong. They probably never thought that far ahead while escaping lol.

Originally posted by Kira:

walking away from that relationship to be with some other person instead means you are no longer exposed to the horror of having found true love only to risk losing it, because you chose to lose it on your terms. If you ask me, this just reinforces how bad this ending is.

Yeah, it is what it is. Still, to me it feels like an expression of love in and of itself: in stepping beyond mere physicality perhaps for the first time in the entire game, Kay and Yu choose to place a higher value on one another's lives than on their intimacy, and thus in a way finally transition into adulthood. This is actually part of the reason why I believe that the other ending dooms them -- choosing a sacrifice without the actual sacrifice in the end reeks of cheap, bad writing, and this game is anything but poorly-written.

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

Yeah, it is what it is. Still, to me it feels like an expression of love in and of itself: in stepping beyond mere physicality perhaps for the first time in the entire game, Kay and Yu choose to place a higher value on one another's lives than on their intimacy, and thus in a way finally transition into adulthood. This is actually part of the reason why I believe that the other ending dooms them -- choosing a sacrifice without the actual sacrifice in the end reeks of cheap, bad writing, and this game is anything but poorly-written.

Well they could do stuff like
- rebuild a spaceship from literal scratch
- adjust their standard issue levitation boots to effectively fly
- adjust their standard issue gloves to have a radar in it
- don't forget the whole "reverse rust polarity" thing

At this point it feels to me that they can basically do anything (i.e. technology = magic trope) except the things the writers don't want them to think is possible. So I wouldn't hinge any arguments about the game being well-written or not, given how we don't know what are the real limitations of the technologies they have access to, we just assume it was thought through, but maybe it was just used as a tool to create endings the people will talk about.

Oh wait.

Anyway, staying on a planet alone is a pretty big sacrifice. You can't go out and party anymore, except with the same one person. Whenever she's not in the mood to party, you'll have to skinny dip alone. You won't have access to cheap universal healthcare, only some mushrooms. You will be sharply limited in the amount of resources available for you to build whatever life you want for yourself, like you want extra rooms? Build a tent. You can have kids, but you will have tremendous difficulties without having access to grandparents or a babysitter to watch them every once in a while, not to mention how difficult it will for your kids to find partners for themselves. Even without any crystal scars or orbit shift, they will have sort of doomed themselves.

Whereas the surrender option... The argument just feels wrong. Yu gets brainwashed. Essentially the person she was is deleted. A new person is constructed from part of her memories and part of desirable qualities like obedience. Chances are she will be less like the person she used to be than some other people living in the Apiary who happen to be naturally close in personality to her. Maybe Kay's matchmaker-selected mate will be more like Yu used to be than Yu herself will be. Essentially that choice kills Yu while preserving her body, which feels like a very superficial choice.

I could see a choice if it was always Yu who gets injured, that the end is basically a choice whether you compromise Yu's body, or her mind. This could be a sort of deep philosophical discussion or something, given how she rebelled and stuff. But as I identified more with Yu and picked choices more from her angle, she ended up with way more confidence, and so it became a very different question for me...

As of right now feels like they made everything in their power to give you the worst ending possible, so yes, we need a Haven 2 that tells you "don't worry, that was not the end of it, did you really think we made this sweet great game and left you with a terrible ending?ofc not! there is more!"

So yes, a Haven 2 that fixes the ending would feel like Haven 1 and 2 are tied up and Haven 1 just "happens" to end in a terrible cliffhanger.

Originally posted by Wisp:

As of right now feels like they made everything in their power to give you the worst ending possible, so yes, we need a Haven 2 that tells you "don't worry, that was not the end of it, did you really think we made this sweet great game and left you with a terrible ending?ofc not! there is more!"

So yes, a Haven 2 that fixes the ending would feel like Haven 1 and 2 are tied up and Haven 1 just "happens" to end in a terrible cliffhanger.

I also want Haven 2!

Wow. There is a lot of idea and PoV being thrown around. I like it. In the end all i wanted is to get the Devs attention and show em that the game could go a bit further and that ppls would support it. I would !!

I think Haven has promise for a sequel, Especially as the most likely Cannon ending is the one ripe (pun intended) for supporting one. Liberating the planets from the oppressive (Yet Stabilizing) force that is Apiary creates a rift between those who would restore it, and those who would embrace a new chaos. Add being infected with the rust, a still working ship/nest, and the released planets into natural orbit... The Piper must eventually be paid, and this couple will have to defend their new freedom. Something I'd be happy to help them do!

Originally posted by Kira:

Originally posted by Wisp:

As of right now feels like they made everything in their power to give you the worst ending possible, so yes, we need a Haven 2 that tells you "don't worry, that was not the end of it, did you really think we made this sweet great game and left you with a terrible ending?ofc not! there is more!"

So yes, a Haven 2 that fixes the ending would feel like Haven 1 and 2 are tied up and Haven 1 just "happens" to end in a terrible cliffhanger.

I also want Haven 2!

I wouldn't call the ending "terrible," but I WOULD call it incomplete. I think almost everyone agrees that severing the Flow literally tethering the planets is the Cannon conclusion. Especially so when a basis for that end is building the character's confidence to actually do so, which the player is encouraged to facilitate. I guess the question is how would the piper have to be paid, and what is the consequence of the rust infection long-term?

Originally posted by Kira:

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

Yeah, it is what it is. Still, to me it feels like an expression of love in and of itself: in stepping beyond mere physicality perhaps for the first time in the entire game, Kay and Yu choose to place a higher value on one another's lives than on their intimacy, and thus in a way finally transition into adulthood. This is actually part of the reason why I believe that the other ending dooms them -- choosing a sacrifice without the actual sacrifice in the end reeks of cheap, bad writing, and this game is anything but poorly-written.

Well they could do stuff like
- rebuild a spaceship from literal scratch
- adjust their standard issue levitation boots to effectively fly
- adjust their standard issue gloves to have a radar in it
- don't forget the whole "reverse rust polarity" thing

At this point it feels to me that they can basically do anything (i.e. technology = magic trope) except the things the writers don't want them to think is possible. So I wouldn't hinge any arguments about the game being well-written or not, given how we don't know what are the real limitations of the technologies they have access to, we just assume it was thought through, but maybe it was just used as a tool to create endings the people will talk about.

Oh wait.

Anyway, staying on a planet alone is a pretty big sacrifice. You can't go out and party anymore, except with the same one person. Whenever she's not in the mood to party, you'll have to skinny dip alone. You won't have access to cheap universal healthcare, only some mushrooms. You will be sharply limited in the amount of resources available for you to build whatever life you want for yourself, like you want extra rooms? Build a tent. You can have kids, but you will have tremendous difficulties without having access to grandparents or a babysitter to watch them every once in a while, not to mention how difficult it will for your kids to find partners for themselves. Even without any crystal scars or orbit shift, they will have sort of doomed themselves.

Whereas the surrender option... The argument just feels wrong. Yu gets brainwashed. Essentially the person she was is deleted. A new person is constructed from part of her memories and part of desirable qualities like obedience. Chances are she will be less like the person she used to be than some other people living in the Apiary who happen to be naturally close in personality to her. Maybe Kay's matchmaker-selected mate will be more like Yu used to be than Yu herself will be. Essentially that choice kills Yu while preserving her body, which feels like a very superficial choice.

I could see a choice if it was always Yu who gets injured, that the end is basically a choice whether you compromise Yu's body, or her mind. This could be a sort of deep philosophical discussion or something, given how she rebelled and stuff. But as I identified more with Yu and picked choices more from her angle, she ended up with way more confidence, and so it became a very different question for me...

i don't think anyone's arguing Yu's rust injury and being stranded are the Cannon ending. I wouldn't mind knowing for sure, but it's definingly the best ending to base a sequel on. Apiary isn't just going to sit back and watch everything they/it made fall apart. There will be a rift, and an effort to re-tether the planets. This couple WILL have to fight to keep their freedom. But the great irony, by not returning and upsetting the link, they might have done more than they could have imagined possible sparking a rebellion.

(To be specific, they just created a forced-separation that will give people time to think. If Apiary is as hatted as the game hints, then they WILL NOT be the only rebels when the planets drift close to each other again.)

Originally posted by The Rhythm Thief:

Make no mistake, I love this game and wouldn't mind seeing more, yet the idea itself of having more Haven feels rather superfluous given what we've already got.

I actually disagree. There's definingly more room for story here, especially with two major questions un-answered. And for three reasons no less. First: This couple won't just let one die without some kind of counter-effort. Second: Apiary is equally guaranteed to TRY and reclaim the order that's now in danger of being lost. and Third: The planets are going to pass by each other again just the same as our own do.

So I do hope for a sequel, because I want to see the consequences of all of this. "The piper MUST be paid." And that could not be more true than here, especially with the much-hated Apiary having some hefty tips of it's own to fork out.