Jemppu's Reviews > Venus Plus X
Venus Plus X
by
by
"You cannot be objective about it because you have been indoctrinated, sermonized, drenched, imbued, inculcated and policed on the matter since first you wore blue booties. You come from a time and place in which [...] the importance of then- difference, were matters of almost total preoccupation."
An ambitious and commendably independent-thinking exploration on societal roles of gender and sex. Compelling general discussion on the theme - framed in a heartwarming comradery - but which also occasionally tended to veer into speculations on distractingly narrow, or irrelevant-seeming, culturally specific suppositions.
However, what the text most fatally suffers from - with a frustrating consistency - is the severe limitation in keeping it from ever fully comprehending, or properly conveying, the concept of social neutrality it seeks to examine: its strictly gendering language. (Fact which, however, effectively brings focus to this very problem in linguistic culture).
The text discusses with confidence social structures of supposed gender hierarchies, taboos and gendered norms tied to, or excused by, Christian values - all the usual fare on gender roles which dictate much of the Anglocentric discourses. However, with its level of debate still on trying to debunk those extensively caricaturized biases - and with the aforementioned glaringly evident linguistic obstacle - the narrative never feels quite ripe enough to adequately grasp or convey concepts beyond gender/sex evaluated societal arrangements, or individual identity removed from sex altogether.
Though, the book does arrive there in the end - to embracing the fact of individual differences without subjecting them to unnecessarily divisive gender/sex-valued categorizations -, it does so by quite a convoluted route - so as to address even those most sidetracked of principles it allows into the discourse.
That is to say, it is visionary in its own societal and linguistic cultural sphere, demystifying issues with the usual standing point of conservative US values in mind (cultural similarities and values of which are, of course, applicable in varying degrees of accuracy within and beyond national borders).
For me personally, perhaps the most absent aspect (aside the lacking language making the point of gender-neutrality null altogether) was the narrative's general inability to ever clearly enough separate sex/gender from identity.
Given the time and place of its conception, however, the text is inspiringly clear-sighted and thorough in scrutinizing the stagnant norms in the domain it habits, and perhaps more importantly: targets. And, indeed, by what ever method, it satisfyingly arrives to the most important conclusion eventually.
"Humanity has never attained its optimum ability to reason, its maximum objectivity, until now, because it has always plagued itself with its dichotomies. In us, the very concept of any but individual differences has been eliminated."
____
(Further notes in the reading updates below, as per usual).
This left one rather tempted to re-edit the book's text to include the gender-neutral language its narrative most acutely requires, but fails to ever utilize - to see how that alone would work in favor of its message.
An ambitious and commendably independent-thinking exploration on societal roles of gender and sex. Compelling general discussion on the theme - framed in a heartwarming comradery - but which also occasionally tended to veer into speculations on distractingly narrow, or irrelevant-seeming, culturally specific suppositions.
However, what the text most fatally suffers from - with a frustrating consistency - is the severe limitation in keeping it from ever fully comprehending, or properly conveying, the concept of social neutrality it seeks to examine: its strictly gendering language. (Fact which, however, effectively brings focus to this very problem in linguistic culture).
The text discusses with confidence social structures of supposed gender hierarchies, taboos and gendered norms tied to, or excused by, Christian values - all the usual fare on gender roles which dictate much of the Anglocentric discourses. However, with its level of debate still on trying to debunk those extensively caricaturized biases - and with the aforementioned glaringly evident linguistic obstacle - the narrative never feels quite ripe enough to adequately grasp or convey concepts beyond gender/sex evaluated societal arrangements, or individual identity removed from sex altogether.
Though, the book does arrive there in the end - to embracing the fact of individual differences without subjecting them to unnecessarily divisive gender/sex-valued categorizations -, it does so by quite a convoluted route - so as to address even those most sidetracked of principles it allows into the discourse.
That is to say, it is visionary in its own societal and linguistic cultural sphere, demystifying issues with the usual standing point of conservative US values in mind (cultural similarities and values of which are, of course, applicable in varying degrees of accuracy within and beyond national borders).
For me personally, perhaps the most absent aspect (aside the lacking language making the point of gender-neutrality null altogether) was the narrative's general inability to ever clearly enough separate sex/gender from identity.
Given the time and place of its conception, however, the text is inspiringly clear-sighted and thorough in scrutinizing the stagnant norms in the domain it habits, and perhaps more importantly: targets. And, indeed, by what ever method, it satisfyingly arrives to the most important conclusion eventually.
"Humanity has never attained its optimum ability to reason, its maximum objectivity, until now, because it has always plagued itself with its dichotomies. In us, the very concept of any but individual differences has been eliminated."
____
(Further notes in the reading updates below, as per usual).
This left one rather tempted to re-edit the book's text to include the gender-neutral language its narrative most acutely requires, but fails to ever utilize - to see how that alone would work in favor of its message.
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Reading Progress
October 18, 2019
– Shelved
October 18, 2019
– Shelved as:
to-read
June 10, 2021
–
Started Reading
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
""He examined the pronoun “him” by itself for the very first time, and found that it had gender only in his own reference; when he spoke the word it translated to “him” in English... But in its own reference, in the Ledom tongue, it had no sexual nor gender meaning."
Going to address this passage in pieces in the next few posts: ..."
Going to address this passage in pieces in the next few posts: ..."
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
"One of my peeves in translations of genderless languages to English is seeing the completely unrelated-to-gender/sex pronouns given any gendered/sexed value what so ever, by implying they mean "he/she", when they do not, but instead mean any and all 'one'. None of that gender separatist b(ia)s, not a glimpse of gender or sex anywhere."
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
"Even 'they' doesn't quite grasp the gender-detached meaning anymore, because dictionary now puts gendered definitions to that, too - as something apart of 'he/she' -, and people increasingly perceive it as something separate from 'he/she'.
Which is why, in linguistic context at least, it's great to have designations like '3rd person singular' used in stead of 'direct' translations (because, direct they are not)."
Which is why, in linguistic context at least, it's great to have designations like '3rd person singular' used in stead of 'direct' translations (because, direct they are not)."
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
""Yet it was a personal pronoun; it would not be used in speaking of things. In English, “it” is an impersonal pronoun; the word “one” used as a pronoun is not.”"
Many languages do not make the distinction. And def do not treat a 'personal' pronoun like if it was something individual - the point of it being exactly that you can refer to beings/things you do not know without subjecting them to any implied bias."
Many languages do not make the distinction. And def do not treat a 'personal' pronoun like if it was something individual - the point of it being exactly that you can refer to beings/things you do not know without subjecting them to any implied bias."
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
""The personal pronoun — and there was only one! in Ledom was like that: personal and without gender."
'Personal' as in 'referring to a person' (/being?) instead of an object (though, languages do not all make that distinction either); not an individually chosen noun tied to a person's personal identity.
That is what we have names for. (And it is why given names should be allowed to be changed/chosen freely)."
'Personal' as in 'referring to a person' (/being?) instead of an object (though, languages do not all make that distinction either); not an individually chosen noun tied to a person's personal identity.
That is what we have names for. (And it is why given names should be allowed to be changed/chosen freely)."
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
""Did the pronoun’s having no gender mean the Ledom then had no sex?" ...they had never seen a male, but they were not females.
The words and concepts “male” and “female” existed in the language.
Or could it be they would not have met a person, who separates themself from some part of a population by their sex? Is a person who socially defines themself by sex (or gender tied to sex) a foreign concept to them?"
The words and concepts “male” and “female” existed in the language.
Or could it be they would not have met a person, who separates themself from some part of a population by their sex? Is a person who socially defines themself by sex (or gender tied to sex) a foreign concept to them?"
June 10, 2021
–
37.0%
""...the alternative was: both. Each of them, had both sexes. He looked up into Mielwis’ patient eyes. “You’re both,” he said."
Even in fiction it seems hard to expect English thinking to grasp a concept of identifying by anything but sex or gender, or it to see the importance of freedom from limited identity options. Gender is tied to the very fabric with which the language observes itself and others."
Even in fiction it seems hard to expect English thinking to grasp a concept of identifying by anything but sex or gender, or it to see the importance of freedom from limited identity options. Gender is tied to the very fabric with which the language observes itself and others."
June 10, 2021
–
39.0%
"“And if you did not come from a culture which so exhaustively concentrated on differences which were in themselves not drastic, you would be able to see how small the differences actually were.”
Or how the differences might not matter at all, if you only did not give them any regard."
Or how the differences might not matter at all, if you only did not give them any regard."
June 10, 2021
–
40.0%
""Even after such a demonstration, Charlie found himself thinking of Mielwis as “he” — which was still the convenient translation of the genderless Ledom pronoun."
It hardly ever was. Unless you use the word universally to all beings."
It hardly ever was. Unless you use the word universally to all beings."
June 10, 2021
–
40.0%
"“How in the name of all that’s holy did humanity get that churned up?”
'All that is holy' probably had a large part to do with it - with 'spreading the word'?"
'All that is holy' probably had a large part to do with it - with 'spreading the word'?"
June 10, 2021
–
46.0%
""Herb opens his eyes and looks past her at the sky. “He [*the sexless/genderless person] says people made their first big mistake when first they started to forget the similarity between men and women and began to concentrate on the difference."
Arguably, the mistake was assigning any significance to any differences."
Arguably, the mistake was assigning any significance to any differences."
June 10, 2021
–
50.0%
"As usual, there's this specific mix of frustration and hilarity to read about ideas of sex-/gender-neutrality in language, which on every utterance perpetuates the gendered difference between sexes - whether at all relevant or not. And fails to demonstrate any neutral regard - discussing the sexless/genderless beings in same gendered terms.
Exhausting, the linguistic shackles limiting both concept and conveyance."
Exhausting, the linguistic shackles limiting both concept and conveyance."
June 10, 2021
–
80.0%
""We worship the child because it is inconceivable that we would ever obey one.""
June 10, 2021
–
83.0%
""Charlie realized that things are, after all, comparative; the Ledom genuinely were less preoccupied with sexual matters than he was, just as he was less preoccupied than, say, a Victorian housewife who would refer to the "limbs" of a piano, and who would not put a book by a male author on a shelf next to one by a female author unless the two authors happened to be married.""
June 10, 2021
–
85.0%
"How much more convincing - and how far less oxymoronic - these anecdotes on "history and historical ‘motivations with never a mention of sex" would be, if the language used wasn't perceivably gendered.
I feel sorry for Philos, to be a being unrelated to this gendered nonsense, but conceived by a mind limited in language to fully convey them as they should manifest."
I feel sorry for Philos, to be a being unrelated to this gendered nonsense, but conceived by a mind limited in language to fully convey them as they should manifest."
June 10, 2021
–
86.0%
""You cannot be objective about it because you have been indoctrinated, sermonized, drenched, imbued, inculcated and policed on the matter since first you wore blue booties. You come from a time and place in which the maleness of the male, and the femaleness of the female, and the importance of then- difference, were matters of almost total preoccupation.""
June 10, 2021
–
88.0%
""Central Europeans were startled and very much amused to see American farmers milking cows and feeding chickens, for never in their lives had they seen that done by any but women."
While explaining how the idea of gendered roles are tied to culture, the text seems to fail to notice or address the gendered role it assumes on the 'American farmers'."
While explaining how the idea of gendered roles are tied to culture, the text seems to fail to notice or address the gendered role it assumes on the 'American farmers'."
June 10, 2021
–
95.0%
""We are raising children who will emulate neither mother-images nor father-images, but parents.""
June 10, 2021
–
95.0%
""For Philos had told his story in the Ledom tongue, and he had always used the Ledom pronoun which is not masculine nor feminine but which also is not “it”; it was he, Charlie himself, who had translated it “he.”
*rolls eyes in gender-neutral*"
*rolls eyes in gender-neutral*"
June 10, 2021
–
95.0%
"Throughout, the book has used 'he' as if a universal pronoun for hypothetical individuals, and a neutral for gender-unrelated persons. Fine otherwise, but of course it isn't neither universal nor neutral at all, when it still also carries it's gendered value and when the females are separately called 'she' in contrast."
June 10, 2021
–
100.0%
""Humanity has never attained its optimum ability to reason, its maximum objectivity, until now, because it has always plagued itself with its dichotomies. In us, the very concept of any but individual differences has been eliminated.""
June 10, 2021
–
Finished Reading
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John Dishwasher
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Jun 12, 2021 02:28PM
Great review.
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