Scheduled calls for FLEDGE

[michaelkleber]

We will hold phone calls to discuss the Protected Audience API if there is demand.

Meetings may happen on Wednesdays at 11am Boston (= 8am California = 5pm Paris). However, we will only hold meetings if someone proposes an agenda item to discuss.

Calls will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091
• Calendar entry: Join the Google Group https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/protected-audience-api-meetings/ . (Even though this page says "You don't have permission to access this content", but if you log into a Google account then you will see a "Join group" button at the top of the page.)

Agenda proposals, attendance records, notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

If you want to participate in the call, please make sure you join the WICG: https://www.w3.org/community/wicg/

Other related meetings:

1. People interested in this discussion may also be interested in the complementary discussion of the Trusted Servers that the browser interacts with during the flow of this API. See Scheduled calls for Protected Auction Services protected-auction-services-discussion#27 for logistics of that meeting, which is scheduled to take place immediately following this meeting, around half of the weeks.
2. Microsoft Edge folks are also working on a heavily-overlapping proposal. They intend to meet during this same hour every second Thursday. See Scheduled Calls for Ad Selection API  privacy-preserving-ads#50 for logistics.

[BasileLeparmentier]

Hello Michael,

If I am not wrong the dates are all next week, I see that Wednesday is first in number of attendant, and Monday second.

Can you please tell us which one it is going to be?

Best,
Basile

[michaelkleber]

Yes indeed — the Doodle poll's most popular time is Wednesday at 11am Boston / 5pm Paris / 8am California, approved by 34/39 voters. We'll start with that on this coming Wed Feb 3.

(The second-place hour in the poll, the same time slot on Mondays, now makes me nervous, since it is the slot that the Conversion Measurement WICG calls are also using. They are currently on an every-other-week schedule, but there was just a comment in last week's call about maybe adjusting the frequency. So I'm glad to avoid that risk of future conflict.)

[TheMaskMaker]

Hello Michael,

I am new to the WICG and was hoping for guidance on how to access the meetings. I have been poking around the group page and discourse but could not find it and am hoping you can help me. Thanks in advance!

[thezedwards]

Assuming it's not done already, I'd like to request that the calls be recorded or full transcripts provided -- these FLEDGE details and discussions about how to fix side channels prior to deployment may need considerable external dialog and ideally people could catch up to previous discussions if they are not engaged yet.

Recordings are ideal, transcripts second best.

@michaelkleber - can ya'll consider creating a FLoC calendar/resource page, outside of Github, with links to 100% of the proposals, calendars for discussions like FLEDGE and a centralized resource to ongoing issues and side channels being debated? It feels like tons of important topics or convos may get duplicated because people didn't find a corresponding github issue, and it would be helpful if someone at google would link to 100% of the 3rd party feedback/articles/videos and provide clarifications/corrections when needed. At this point, the public almost needs a "FLoC Fact Check" where rumors and confusion can be clarified. Not a War Room - a fact check resource. This work to audit new data supply chain proposals for side channels is hard enough without well-intentioned people getting details wrong, or some FloC opponents purposefully confusing details -- and without a place where an average person can "submit a rumor for response" to the Google team, I fear there will not only be tons of businesses who can't prepare themselves, but reporters / auditors / privacy advocates / gov officials will potentially put up road blocks for non-problems, while ignoring real side channels that need debates and potential trade offs.

[michaelkleber]

Call Details:

Calls will take place every other Wednesday, for one hour, beginning at at 4pm UTC = 11am Boston = 8am California = 5pm Paris time. The first call will be Wednesday Feb 3 2021.

The call will take place on Google Meet:

• Video call link: https://meet.google.com/djm-iupb-sdz
• Or dial: ‪(US) +1 401-589-5448‬ PIN: ‪327 541 034‬#
• More phone numbers: https://tel.meet/djm-iupb-sdz?pin=1430654960091

Attendance and notes will happen in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kr0hpfQ_Q1LX1aN00D5k_09yV_a7WE9RSn69nS3nZho/edit

For a speaker queue, we will use the Google Meet "Raise My Hand" feature.

[michaelkleber]

Hi @thezedwards: Details and discussions will surely need considerable external dialogue, as you say! But these phone calls will serve largely as a place to bring up these questions, or to call attention to them. The substantive discussions should all happen in individual GitHub issues. This should allow for the kind of after-the-fact catching up that you mention, and also for full participation in the work by people who can't join a meeting this particular hour.

This is the W3C standard, but I quite understand that it's not familiar to everyone. Thanks for pointing this out, and I will be sure to make it clear during the calls where the detailed work happens.

I will also bring up the question of recording. See here for a discussion of the W3C position on recording meetings.

For stuff about FLoC, could you please open an issue on the FLoC repo? This issue, and indeed this whole repo, is about FLEDGE and the extended TURTLEDOVE family of ideas, which are pretty separate from the FLoC work.

[thezedwards]

Thank you for those links @michaelkleber -

I've got concerns with the w3c position on recording meetings - I've commented on that thread and will continue to take this up on external channels.

These discussions are about massive changes to the Chromium platform -- used primarily by Microsoft and Google - and it seems like the discussions are being organized in Github and Google Docs (w3c uses a different note taking app typically) - the feedback is being organized in software respectively owned by the 2 entities tracking the proposals and feedback. I have concerns with ya'lls tracking vectors in these platforms, and I don't think it's appropriate for neither Google or Microsoft to have a centralized place on either of your websites linking to all the proposals and with details about how to get involved.

I feel strongly that this process is siloing feedback in dangerous ways for the market -- it takes a herculean effort to track down all the proposals and potentially all the links needed to parse concerns.

The Google/Microsoft teams should consider creating one simple support article on their respective websites - link to all your blog posts about this (posts like this @ https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/2021-01-privacy-sandbox/ are great and filled with good links, but this isn't how normal google support articles are organized), link to all the proposals from google + criteo and everyone working on different angles - and explain how the W3c process works and why it was chosen for discussions. Ya'll could list all the tracking vectors for each proposal, all ongoing side channels that need debate -- a clean way to showcase concerns and non-google proposals *(with responses showing concerns). At some point, Google will need to clarify this process to the world and for regulators/elected officials (how it went down) -- and ya'll will likely need to create this resource at some point before the launch of any of these proposals -- my ask is that ya'll front load this, get all the links organized now - explain process + meeting opportunities - and help more folks engage in this process before most of the decisions are finalized.

FWIW, I'm also advocating for elected officials to hold hearings on the privacy sandbox proposals vs 3rd party cookies - and I hope that this important decision about the internet isn't made by just a handful of folks on a Microsoft-owned social network for developers.

Thanks for hearing the concerns and trying to think of any ways to organize all the details in an external page off-github -- while linking back to the proposals on github as-needed.

Sincerely,
Zach

[michaelkleber]

Hi Zack: Perhaps what you're looking for is Chrome's Developer Relations site, where @samdutton has an article https://web.dev/digging-into-the-privacy-sandbox/ ? That was last updated in December, and FLEDGE is more recent than that, so not perfect, but I think it's a start.

[thezedwards]

Thanks, that is a good article I'd agree. I guess i'll put in "a vote" to update that one blog post and just put FLEDGE and ongoing new content in that one post. That's sorta the problem though - ya'll have a few good posts, that all link to good stuff - but none of them are 100% accurate and there isn't one where people can check back week after week for any new links/data/results/concerns etc.

cheers,
zach

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 3 meeting are posted here; much thanks to @jkarlin for scribing.

Next call is planned for Feb 17. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.

[michaelkleber]

Minutes from the Feb 17 meeting are posted here; much thanks to Brendan Riordan-Butterworth for scribing.

Next call is planned for March 3. See the top message in this issue for logistical details.