westwiiind:

“rahh they shouldn’t have sent the dragons away for their own safety! they were giving up and admitting defeat! they can easily take any threat!” first off, no they can’t, hiccup basically fell to his death like two seconds before sending the dragons away, and the year before that the fight over dragons cost him his father and berk its chief, not to mention how many homes were destroyed and how many ppl were hurt in both the second and third movies. drago’s bewilderbeast’s ice destroyed the village. grimmel burned it down a year later. that kind of perpetuity of violence is so irresponsible for a leader to allow to continue indefinitely???? just bc “we can win though probably!” ?????? things are different in the earlier movies and tv shows BC THEY SHOW THE PROGRESSION OF VIOLENCE. after the first battle, they’re not gonna give up trying. after the third battle, they’re not gonna give up trying. after six YEARS of trying to change the world for the better (and the TWENTY YEARS hiccup knows valka spent trying to do the same thing), only to find that his island of people and dragons is in just as much (or really, even more) danger than before? yeah, excuse them for maybe considering “giving up.” in the first two movies and the shows, they hadn’t lost enough for it all to amount to such a drastic decision. by the time of thw, they had lost so much, and u guys apparently can’t comprehend the toll that takes. hiccup’s goal was always to protect dragons. how is leaving them vulnerable protecting them???? how is letting them continuously battle for their lives protecting them??? do u guys think these ppl and dragons have an endless battery for war and violence?????? the point was that violence was unavoidable, and no good leader of humans or dragons would let that continue even if there’s a noble cause.

(via queenofthearchipelago)

how to train your dragon httyd thoughts the hidden world you! you get it! thw is an absolute masterpiece and i'm sorry y'all can't love and appreciate it the way me and this person do all queued up

errrrm-ok asked:

I think Astrid should've been elected chief at the end of httyd 2. Hiccup didn't even really want it but you could tell she did. It just seems like a cliche ending.

kingofthewilderwest Answer:

It’s interesting to see peoples’ thoughts regarding Astrid and the chiefdom! You’re not the only one for sure who’s wanted Astrid to take the chiefdom rather than Hiccup. 

Personally, for me, I am very thankful she is not. You are totally one hundred and ten percent free to disagree with me, but I’ll yammer below some of my personal thoughts of why Astrid should not be chief. While you feel like Hiccup becoming chief is a cliché ending, for me Astrid becoming chief would be a cop-out to Hiccup’s character development. The very fact he doesn’t want it actually appeals to me more… it’s quite a bit like how the real world works.

Also check out this analysis by astridthenadderqueen. I agree with it wholeheartedly and will likely bring in some similar points here, too. 

Astrid’s Role as a Supporter

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Ever since Hiccup and Astrid were teenagers, Astrid has demonstrated she is not just a competitive, athletically adept young woman, but also someone with the capabilities of being a great supporter. She is someone capable of listening to another individual, encouraging them to grow and follow their path, and stands behind their decisions - even when she would have not made that decision herself. 

For instance, in HTTYD, Astrid at first scoffs at Hiccup for not telling Stoick about the Red Death’s nest just “to protect [his] pet dragon.” However, as soon as Hiccup states very affirmatively, “Yes,” she decides to go along with his convictions. Instead of arguing, she asks, “Okay. Then what do we do?” She consciously chooses to go along with his plans and his course of action, even though it is exactly what she would not have done. Astrid would have told Stoick about the Dragon’s Nest had she alone found it. However, instead, she lets Hiccup come up with his own plan and stand up for his own beliefs, for she realizes that the dragons mean so very much to him.

Thus we see her again encouraging him to do well right before he enacts that plan in the Kill Ring scene. And even when Hiccup’s plan fails, she does not say, “I told you so,” but talks to him again with the intent to encourage him. Astrid points out Hiccup is extraordinary for being the first Viking to ride a dragon, and that it was not a personal failing on his part not to kill a dragon. She never gives him the solution to his problem, but is right behind him when he decides to do “something crazy”.

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And ever after, this is how Astrid rolls. She has a lot of intelligence and a very strong will, but she also has the incredible ability of bringing out others’ potentials, particularly Hiccup’s. Astrid’s personality is not one of a leader in the forefront (though she can lead, as we have seen in the television series and the second movie). Rather, Astrid’s personality is the supporter, the confidante, the confidence builder. What she does is just as important, if not moreso, than actually taking the lead. But Astrid is not the one whose abilities best match taking the wheel directly.

Even in How to Train Your Dragon 2 when Astrid hears Hiccup has been asked to be chief, she tells Hiccup it is “an honor.” She is not expressing she wants to be chief at all; rather, she is seeing Stoick’s decision to make Hiccup chief as the honor it is. She emphasizes to Hiccup that he is missing the point when Stoick tries to get his son to be Berk’s next leader, and rather than sounding bitter or at all upset about Hiccup getting the position rather than she, she tries to find a way to make the transition easier for Hiccup. Astrid mentions she can fly Toothless for Hiccup because he will be so busy. So Astrid is trying to help her boyfriend become the chief. She is being the supporter she has always been. 

It is true Hiccup does not at all want to be chief. But just because Astrid sees the honor in being chief does not mean she wants it for herself. Rather, all evidence points to the fact she thinks that Hiccup will be a good leader and that she is willing to help him get there. She sees in him his potential even when he does not.

Astrid is the supporter behind the chief, and she is far stronger in her abilities here than as chief herself. I will talk a bit more about what makes a good leader later… but first… let’s get to Hiccup’s character arc.

Hiccup’s Growth into a Hero

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The book series describes Hiccup’s journey as “becoming a Hero the Hard Way.” What is interesting about Hiccup is he is not only reluctant to become the king he is destined to be, but in many ways, he is completely unwilling. However, Hiccup becomes a leader even though, in his ideal world, he would never become it. Hiccup realizes that he has to stand up to his moral convictions, and through that grows to be an amazing man.

Ever since I heard fan theories before HTTYD 2 came out, and people postulated either Hiccup or Astrid would be chief, I prayed fervently it would not be Astrid. It would eat away at the central theme of the book series, and it would throw in a huge rough spot of movie!Hiccup’s character arc as well. However, the storyline of HTTYD 2 does not do that at all; so many points of Hiccup’s life, from meeting Valka to confronting Drago to everything in between, is a wonderful channel toward Hiccup becoming chief in the end.

Here comes a long explanation of how the plotline is all completely about Hiccup becoming chief, and why the storyline would suffer if that were turned aside.

The writers set up in the early Hiccstrid scene the seeds of the becoming-chief plot. Hiccup expresses that he does not know who he is as a person, and that he does not want to be chief because he is not into giving speeches and running the village. This suggests that, during the course of HTTYD 2, Hiccup will find out who he is, including his role into the chiefdom. Even him bringing up not knowing his mother is hugely important.

Never forget the line, “ I’m not like you. You know exactly who you are. You always have. I’m still looking. I know that I’m not my father… and I never met my mother…. so, what does that make me?” It is so very much the key to Hiccup’s growth. 

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Hiccup lacks a bit of responsibility early in the film. Okay, a lot of responsibility. He might have revolutionized Berk for the better, being key in building the underground dragon stalls and the aqueduct system, but at the same time, he has no problem running away as soon as his father even suggests he be a leader. Hiccup literally flies off Berk to avoid his father talking about being chief. And he completely skips work with Gobber, which frankly does not seem like a first-time occurrence. 

Still, despite this rawness, despite this not-fully-responsible boyhood he is in, Hiccup shows the seeds of being a leader. People know he can do it from his teenaged years, yet Hiccup is incredibly caught up about the fact he is nothing like his father, which he feels translates into not being a good chief. And Hiccup still shows that he has the conviction to care about Berk and help them early in the film. He takes charge talking to Eret even when Stoick does not want him to. This shows that Hiccup might have some inklings of being a leader, but he is not yet there. 

So we see him grate against his father. This points back to the quote, “I know that I’m not my father.” In a deleted scene, Hiccup even balks, “If you want me to be chief, you’ve got to let me do it my way!”

That’s setting up his growth for sure. 

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And then he goes to his mother. Seeing her is a dream come true. Though there is initial awkwardness in meeting her, Hiccup quickly gets exuberant to have a family member who is such a dragon lover, too. Mother and son see how they are alike, and Valka tries to encourage Hiccup to spend his life going around exploring the world and finding every dragon species out there. Hiccup thinks that sounds great.

Problem: as fun of a life as that would be for Hiccup, it is not who he is either. When Hiccup rambles he is not like his father and he has never met his mother, it is clear now that Hiccup is not his mother, either. He cannot just run away from Berk. That is irresponsible. And even while Valka’s offer is tempting, Hiccup in some ways know this cannot be the answer, either; he wants his mom to come and talk to Drago, too, who is Berk’s major problem at the time.

Hiccup finally finds the complete answer to who he is during his father’s funeral when his mother says, “You have the heart of a chief and the soul of a dragon.”

We finally answer the question, “What does that make me?” that Hiccup poses at the start of the film. Hiccup is the fusion of mother and father. He is both the chief his father is and the dragon his mother is. He is neither of them and both of them. He is the bridge between the dragon world and the human world.

He is Berk’s chief.

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Hiccup is correct from the start he is not the type of chief his father is. He is more revolutionary and different. Hiccup does not want to be chief because he thinks he cannot be as great as his father… but the entire point is that Berk needs Hiccup, someone who is different, someone who is not a prototypical Viking.

So this entire movie is about Hiccup’s growth into being what he has always had the potential of being: a great leader. And every key point in this movie in Hiccup’s plotline is about him becoming that leader. For no one else can take the position except for Hiccup. 

Hiccup realizes that. The story is one of his personal growth and taking up an adulthood that he might not desire. That is important. Hiccup is forced to be chief… but this very forced situation is what makes him such a great and laudable man in the end of the story. He learns to take responsibility, to act according to his convictions of saving men and dragons, because he has to. He finds out who he is and becomes a Hero the Hard Way.

To take that away from Hiccup is to take away the very center of his characterization. Hiccup never becomes actualized as a hero if he does not take up the mantle of leadership. And it must be through leadership that Hiccup takes up the heroic mantle. This is because Hiccup otherwise would be flying around with Valka, finding dragons, or mapping the world. Hiccup needs an outside force channeling him into who he must be for him to truly grow.

What makes us grow, honestly, is often as not what we don’t decide to do as what we do decide. What is important is that Hiccup takes what he is forced to be - a chief - and takes the responsibility, blossoming in the process. If Astrid became chief, we cop out of Hiccup’s entire characterization plot arc… we take out the very meat and juice of the plot and the morals and the theme of the movie.

The theme of the movie is to become an adult. To stand up for what you believe in, even when you otherwise would not. To take on the mantle of responsibility whether or not you feel ready. The theme is becoming a Hero the Hard Way.

And even if it is, in some ways, predictable Hiccup becomes a chief, the very journey of it has many shocking and satisfying bumps. It is stronger a story, at the very least, than blocking Hiccup from that growth and installing a different chief instead.

What Makes a Good Leader

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What Berk needs is someone to bridge the gap between humans and dragons. In a world where dragons can be a threat and men like Drago are a threat as well, the Hairy Hooligans need a man who can handle both species. As Valka remarks, “Only you can bring our worlds together.” 

Only Hiccup is qualified to be the chief.

Astrid is not honestly good chief material. She is too temperamental and far too quick to fight. Think about Astrid first hopping on Eret’s boat. She pulled out her axe. Rather than being diplomatic, Astrid wanted to fight. And when she is captured by Drago, she threatens him and provokes him… one of the major reasons he decides to attack Berk. We don’t want that in a leader.

She might be a good encourager and an incredible support for others, but she is far more a conventional Viking, not a revolutionary but an adept Viking within her society. As smart and as strong and as respected as Astrid is, she does not have the Vision Hiccup does. Even when she helps Eret like dragons, she is working under Hiccup’s Vision.

And truly great leaders have Vision. Hiccup sees a world of Vikings and dragons united, and he is willing to stand up for it. He is willing to think out of the box, stand for peace, but also fight as need be. 

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We might want to go to Astrid because she has many great capabilities. She might have appeal and she might have some good leadership traits. However, she does not have the ability to stand up for a self-created Vision and build that as a rallying point. Astrid is better at taking an already-made vision and implementing it.

I do not think Astrid would be a horrible chief. And you can certainly still argue as you will about where she succeeded. But here is why I think that it is a very good thing that the authors never wrote her in as the leader. The entire plot is about Hiccup growing from a somewhat irresponsible, uncertain young man who does not know his identity… to someone forced into his identity and takes his convictions to become truly great.

tillythemenace:

All of this cause I just saw that one Astrid line in the LA movie………

THISTHISTHIS!!!

This is exactly why I have a hard time with “Chief Astrid” fics– UNLESS there is a very specific plot-relevant reason within the story that still makes sense for both her and Hiccup’s characters.

Which is exactly why I made Astrid the Chief in my “Hiccup Never Shot Down Toothless” AU. The point is that this is the Bad Ending!!!

“I’ve never been a ‘chief,’ not really.”
“What do you mean?” Stoick said calmly, but it didn’t sound like a question. Because of course he knew. It had been an open secret, one everyone on Berk seemed to know, though none of them ever admitted it out loud.
“I was only really in charge for a year or two after you retired… Hiccup was the real chief.”
They hadn’t planned it like that, of course. When she’d needed to step back on her duties… Hiccup had stepped in. Temporarily, of course. 
But he’d been good at it. Much better than she ever had been, despite the five years of training she’d had before Stoick had stepped down. Hiccup knew how to talk to people, how to navigate treaties and diplomacy, the best strategies to defend against the dragon raids.
So she’d just… let him continue doing that.
Officially, of course, she’d still been the chief. She’d been the one to perform all the ceremonies, to marry people and bless babies and all that, the one people nodded to at the market, the one to call meetings of the council.
But Hiccup had been the one to do most of the speaking at said meetings. 
Astrid was the brute force, the warrior, the one who led the charges on the battlefield. And Hiccup was the who rebuilt out of the ashes.

- A Better Version of Our Best, chapter 6

Without a compelling plot-relevant reason (ie “Hiccup has to take on some other important responsibility that precludes him from being chief”), the only reason for Astrid to be chosen as chief over him is if Hiccup doesn’t believe in himself and his abilities– or if Berk doesn’t.

“So, Dad,” began the young smith… “Have you decided who the next chief is going to be yet?”
“What are you talking about, son? … Hiccup, you’re my heir.”
“Wait, you’re serious? … You and I both know that Berk is not prepared to handle all of this in a chief.” He gestured up and down at himself. “It’d have to be someone level-headed enough to make difficult choices, someone stubborn enough to stand up to a bunch of angry Vikings, someone who really understands and cares for them, someone people would actually like well enough to listen to.”
“People like you!” Stoick said. (Hiccup wondered what island he’d been living on.)
“Of course they like me, I’m very likable… But they don’t exactly respect me. I’m the strange-but-harmless kid with the weird ideas, not their future chief.”
“But you would be!” Stoick insisted. “Just because they don’t see you that way now doesn’t mean that they never will.”
Hiccup could not believe he was having this discussion with his father… He knew Dad loved him. But it wasn’t until right now that Hiccup realized that he also believed in him, believed that he really could be the next chief, hadn’t realized what every other person on this island had known for years.
Hiccup was not that Viking.
“Dad, I’m an apprentice blacksmith. And not a blacksmith like Gobber, who’ll pull a blade from the forge and then turn around and fight off dragons with it. I make weapons, I don’t use them… You know I’m no warrior or dragon-killer– that’s why you never put me in dragon training. I’m not like you guys… And I’m okay with that… But I’m not exactly ‘chief’ material, Dad… I know it, you know it, everyone on Berk knows it. Which brings me back to my original question. Who is?“

- ABVoOB, chapter 7

Hiccup becoming chief is a key component of his character arc and the best choice for Berk– and if you want to tell me it’s not, you’d better have some very compelling reasons why.

how to train your dragon httyd thoughts hiccup haddock shameless self plug a better version of our best i love astrid so much but she would NOT be my first choice for chief and to all those wondering: yes i know i haven't updated this fic in two years but it is NOT abandoned and i hope to be able to come back to it before the end of the year (no promises!) all queued up

p-artsypants:

I have a lot of gripes with THW, but I think the thing that bothers me the most is the destruction of Berk.

You have this village that survived a war with the dragons for 300 years, and every time, they picked themselves up and build anew. The Great Hall and the Haddock home were full of memories and history. The Shields on the walls of the Chieftains of the past. The Statue of Stoick, the training academy…

And it was all gone.

We already had a great loss in Toothless and the dragons leaving at the end, but losing all of Berk was such overkill. Like, even if Grimmel had burnt it to the ground, if the gang had stayed and rebuilt again, I think that would have been so powerful.

But they gave up Berk for the dragons…and then they gave up the dragons.

Overkill, I tell ya. Overkill.

No, no, no you don’t understand that’s the point that’s the whole point!

For seven generations they refused to leave Berk out of sheer stubbornness, because they would not let the dragons win.

They wouldn’t give it up to the dragons!!! But they were willing to give all of it up in a moment FOR the dragons!!! And then they were willing to give up the dragons themselves because that was what was best for them!!!

And yet, the last gift the dragons gave them was a brand new home, some place they never could have found or reached on their own!!! And the same Viking stubbornness that allowed them to stick with Berk as long as they did that allowed them to adapt and settle in a place no one else ever would, even though the dragons were gone!!!!

how to train your dragon httyd thoughts the hidden world if thw has no defenders i am DECEASED!!! please remember that these are VIKINGS!!! exploring and settling new places is part of the deal! i'd argue that the only reason they stayed on berk so long was because they refused to let the dragons win! they left for love of the dragons and not for fear of them!!! (also they brought literally all of their stuff with them. stoick's statue is right there in the 'homecoming' short!) all queued up

dopscratch:

starryarchitect:

me: *reading a httyd post, it’s talking about “hiccup” and “toothless” and I can’t tell which version it is, I like and reblog almost exclusively book posts so it really should be book httyd but the post feels off and the characters don’t seem quite right so it might be the movie*

*scrolls down*

#hiccup haddock

me: yup that’s a movie post

the world would be a little brighter if EVERYONE did hiccup haddock for movie hiccup and hiccup horrendous haddock iii for book hiccup imo hahahahahha

also ive adressed this before in a different post but to prevent people dogpiling me again once more im aware movie hiccup has been called longer versions in rtte (specifically hiccup haddock iii) but he has NEVER ONCE been called hiccup horrendous haddock the third as far as ive seen escepr for a case in the questionably canon match 3 mobile game so he should ONLY EVER be called hiccup haddock without the horrendous because he is not a smallish viking and does not need the longish name and you can pry that opinion out of my cold dead hands

(via anhttydbookfan)

httyd how to train your dragon httyd books thoughts hiccup horrendous haddock iii hiccup haddock i always differentiate with those tags in my movie verse fic i gave him an oc son named after him who does get referred to as 'hiccup haddock the fourth' at one point but i never use 'horrendous' for movie verse hiccup on the otherhand i always tag book toothless as 'tiny toothless' yes i know he came first and therefore movie toothless should have the qualifier but nothing i could come up with for movie toothless beats the alliterative power of 'tiny toothless' all queued up


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