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Fionnuala's Reviews > Elena Knows
Elena Knows
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A curious thing happened at my bookgroup while we were discussing Elena Knows.
The thing is, we meet in a public place, and because there was a spare chair in the circle, somebody sat in it.
The 'somebody' became loudly incredulous when he realised that we had gathered there to discuss a 'story' about people who don't exist but have simply been invented by an author. That we should choose to talk about things that are 'only made up' was beyond his comprehension.
We are polite people so we explained that we discuss such 'stories' about invented characters regularly, and that if he is patient and listens to the discussion, he might see how useful not only for understanding other people but also for understanding ourselves such 'made-up stories' can be.
He wasn't patient though, and he kept cutting people off and changing the subject as if he were somehow the facilitator. But we were united in wanting to keep our discussion on track and managed to steer it around his interruptions, albeit with an increasing sense of frustration.
Then the discussion turned to the episode in Elena Knows where an abortion clinic is mentioned. Well, it was as if a trigger switch had been flipped. The man in the spare chair exploded into a long incoherent rant about abortion, and about how his girlfriend had wanted one but 'he knew' she must carry the baby until birth, and how right that was, and something about another girlfriend and another baby, and basically the entire story of his parenting life and his pro-life beliefs. He even threw in a mention of Ronald Reagan, insisting he was the 'wisest' man in the world.
Our calm discussion had been hijacked completely and we might have given up and gone home but for one soft-spoken person who surprised us all by telling the man in the spare chair that she found him annoying, rude and intrusive, and she wished he'd leave.
He didn't leave but he became quite subdued after that. And while we went on to discuss further aspects of one of the main themes in Elena Knows, the Parkinson's theme, and spoke about the dilemma of being a carer for a parent with the disease, we all seemed of one mind in avoiding any further mention of the other important theme, abortion.
That was a pity as the two themes, abortion and Parkinson's, are intertwined in the book—the burden of carrying another body and the right to refuse if the burden is too much for us, seems to have been what motivated the writing of Elena Knows.
We did talk about the meaning of the title however, and we mentioned the irony of the fact that while the phrase 'Elena knows' rhythms the narrative, Elena learns during the course of the story that she 'doesn't know' as much about everything as she thought she did.
I think that message was probably lost on our certainty-filled spare-chair man. But who can say, perhaps something of Claudia Piñiero's insightful fictional take on real-life issues may make him question some of the things he takes so readily for granted.
The thing is, we meet in a public place, and because there was a spare chair in the circle, somebody sat in it.
The 'somebody' became loudly incredulous when he realised that we had gathered there to discuss a 'story' about people who don't exist but have simply been invented by an author. That we should choose to talk about things that are 'only made up' was beyond his comprehension.
We are polite people so we explained that we discuss such 'stories' about invented characters regularly, and that if he is patient and listens to the discussion, he might see how useful not only for understanding other people but also for understanding ourselves such 'made-up stories' can be.
He wasn't patient though, and he kept cutting people off and changing the subject as if he were somehow the facilitator. But we were united in wanting to keep our discussion on track and managed to steer it around his interruptions, albeit with an increasing sense of frustration.
Then the discussion turned to the episode in Elena Knows where an abortion clinic is mentioned. Well, it was as if a trigger switch had been flipped. The man in the spare chair exploded into a long incoherent rant about abortion, and about how his girlfriend had wanted one but 'he knew' she must carry the baby until birth, and how right that was, and something about another girlfriend and another baby, and basically the entire story of his parenting life and his pro-life beliefs. He even threw in a mention of Ronald Reagan, insisting he was the 'wisest' man in the world.
Our calm discussion had been hijacked completely and we might have given up and gone home but for one soft-spoken person who surprised us all by telling the man in the spare chair that she found him annoying, rude and intrusive, and she wished he'd leave.
He didn't leave but he became quite subdued after that. And while we went on to discuss further aspects of one of the main themes in Elena Knows, the Parkinson's theme, and spoke about the dilemma of being a carer for a parent with the disease, we all seemed of one mind in avoiding any further mention of the other important theme, abortion.
That was a pity as the two themes, abortion and Parkinson's, are intertwined in the book—the burden of carrying another body and the right to refuse if the burden is too much for us, seems to have been what motivated the writing of Elena Knows.
We did talk about the meaning of the title however, and we mentioned the irony of the fact that while the phrase 'Elena knows' rhythms the narrative, Elena learns during the course of the story that she 'doesn't know' as much about everything as she thought she did.
I think that message was probably lost on our certainty-filled spare-chair man. But who can say, perhaps something of Claudia Piñiero's insightful fictional take on real-life issues may make him question some of the things he takes so readily for granted.
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Reading Progress
January 22, 2023
–
Started Reading
January 25, 2023
– Shelved
January 25, 2023
–
Finished Reading
Comments Showing 1-50 of 85 (85 new)
I wish I were capable of making it up, Julie!Alas, it did happen just as described.
You know, I had written 'a funny thing happened' but changed it because it wasn't funny at all. The guy was so...impervious, so dense. Your mind-boggling word describes the experience perfectly.
Fionnuala wrote: "I wish I were capable of making it up, Julie!Alas, it did happen just as described.
You know, I had written 'a funny thing happened' but changed it because it wasn't funny at all. The guy was so...."
And that, in itself describes the anti-abortionist stance: impervious to any argument, any thesis, any prayer that might present any opposing view. (But that, then, is to be said about any one who has a differing point of view and refuses to listen to the other side, not just anti-a's.)
When we become impervious to sense, it disrupts the entire society ... your group being only a microcosm of what's happening in the outside world.
Even though it was purely "a random act" of nonsense and disruption, it almost couldn't have been planned any better to manifest the real argument of the book.
The reading gods can be ironic, if nothing else.
Lynne wrote: "Fascinating!"A real-life 'story' I could have done without experiencing, Lynne.
Julie wrote: "When we become impervious to sense, it disrupts the entire society ... your group being only a microcosm of what's happening in the outside world..."That sums it up very well, Julie. And my group, being readers and therefore, I like to think, good listeners, were all the easier to disrupt. We found ourselves listening to what he said, out of a certain respect for the one who is speaking, but, needless to say, we soon lost respect.
But yes, I wrote about the episode because it seemed to mirror aspects of the book itself.
Were the reading gods against me or with me on this one?
dianne wrote: "I am astounded at you, and your group's, extraordinary politeness. I would have, if not directly asked him to leave once he began his intrusiveness, begun my well-practiced evil eye..."Our group has a facilitator whom, although she practices a very gentle type of facilitation, the spare-chair man zoned in on in a way that made me wonder if she'd somehow invited him though I couldn't really believe that she had. Others may have thought that too initially. So we were unsure of our ground, dianne, and maybe that's why we put up with him for so long. There was also the fact that he came across as incredibly stupid and maybe we were afraid to show we thought that...
I might have been tempted to look around for a church with a bell tower and invited Señor Intruso for a short walk.Did your Group have a positive feeling for the book? I'd think it would be a great vehicle for discussion.
What a frustrating experience, Fionnuala. Some folks are just amazingly rude and self centered. (It doesn't help when the rhetoric of their political group reinforces their 'right' to domineer the discussion on specific issues. Dealing with a bit of that in my own family right now.)
Well that is quite the “spare-chair disruption” by that man, Fionnuala. Your group is quite brave to put up with him but that is what a discussion group entails. And it seems almost fitting that this happened regarding this book. Two very topical subjects intertwined. Hmm the book gods would be smiling.
I read this last year and really enjoyed it. Glad you enjoyed the book, but that dude sounds annoying as hell. But it DOES sound oddly fitting... a man barging in telling y'all about something he knows nothing about.
You may not have made the story up, Fionnuala, but you sure told it well. Stupidity is disruptive and dangerous and can't be reasoned with. That's what's scary about it.
If your lot were more assertive, you wouldn’t have a story tellAnd missed out
Tony wrote: "…Did your Group have a positive feeling for the book? I'd think it would be a great vehicle for discussion..."They definitely did like the book, Tony. People remarked on the way it was written, how the narrative covered such a short time yet dealt with such big themes. People enjoyed the irreverent way Elena characterized her condition and they commented on the tension introduced by the spacing out of her medication—after all, the story would have stalled completely if Elena couldn't put one foot in front of the other. I liked the Elena character a lot—she was just so feisty.
Yes - I'm surprised how no one on my language class complained about a ditzy teacher changing the lessons time and constantly changing the lesson length - as if she thought no one else had a schedule or anything better to do. I left the class. But it surprised me that not one person said anything!!
Incredible! Which doesn’t mean that I don’t believe you.
Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "What a frustrating experience, Fionnuala. Some folks are just amazingly rude and self centered. (It doesn't help when the rhetoric of their political group reinforces their 'right' ..."Oh yes, Amy, the old problem of there being only one 'truth' and it always belonging to the one who holds it, and that 'fact' seeming to add volume to their voice so that others' take on the 'truth' is drowned out completely. It's hard to cope with that issue in society in general but especially hard when it's right up close.
The character Elena in Piñiero's novel was certain she possessed the 'truth' but she did eventually listen to a quiet voice offering a completely different take on the 'truth' Elena had held to be absolute. There is hope, maybe...
David wrote: "...it seems almost fitting that this happened regarding this book. Two very topical subjects intertwined. Hmm the book gods would be smiling..."Yes, I think you're right, David—and you've read the book so you can see the fuller picture…
Jimmy wrote: "I read this last year and really enjoyed it. Glad you enjoyed the book, but that dude sounds annoying as hell. But it DOES sound oddly fitting..."I see you put the book on a shelf called 'all-in-one-day', Jimmy.
I've read a few books that could go on a shelf like that for sure, from books that would take the same time to read as the time it takes the events to play out to books that would take ten times longer to read than the playing out takes. Here I think that Elena's day-trip could be read in the time it took her. Very neat narration. And it was maybe kind of neat that the bookgroup episode mirrored Elena's certitude.
the man was presumably there early for another group due to meet in the same space logosoholics anonymous maybe.
Ulysse wrote: "You may not have made the story up, Fionnuala, but you sure told it well. Stupidity is disruptive and dangerous and can't be reasoned with. That's what's scary about it."I admit that part of my brain was thinking while it was happening that it would make a good story, Ulysse:-)
And yes, I think that the group's paralysis in the face of the disruption was partly due to being aware of how dangerous stupidity can be. When there's stupidity around, violence is sometimes close on its heels.
Nick wrote: "If your lot were more assertive, you wouldn’t have a story tellAnd missed out"
Yes, I'm thinking the review Gods were with me here, Nick—they dropped the review in my lap readymade!
Laura wrote: "…I'm surprised how no one on my language class complained about a ditzy teacher changing the lessons time and constantly changing the lesson length…I left the class. But it surprised me that not one person said anything."I think people behave differently when they are in a group compared to how they'd behave one to one, Laura. Individuals in your group may have put up with the unpredictable teacher because they didn't know just how annoying the others also thought she was, and they themselves didn't want to be seen to be the only difficult one perhaps...
I’m torn between “you couldn’t make this up” (ironically) and the feeling this guy joining your group was actually a bit of a gift. I enjoyed Elena knows but felt in some ways it trod well-covered ground, especially regarding abortion. Your visitor shows how much the conversation is still relevant…I still can’t believe it though..I would have been expecting a camera crew to leap out and surprise you all!
I've become so used to (and expectant of )your talent for allegory, Fionnuala, that when I reached the end of the review I hadn't realized that you were conveying none other that the real story. Which only proves that sometimes real life serves as metaphor - I can imagine the smile on your face, even if you never allowed it to form... 😊
·Karen· wrote: "Incredible! Which doesn’t mean that I don’t believe you."The really incredible thing, which I didn't get into in the review for the sake of brevity, was that the very notion of 'story' seemed foreign to the man. I mean, who grows up without some stories in their lives. When he was trying to get his head around the kind of 'story' we were discussing, he said, 'Like in a James Bond movie?'
That was his only reference for the idea of 'story'. And what a reference that is—so very far from reality and the kind of real-life issues that make a book like Elena Knows so relevant.
Jan-Maat wrote: "the man was presumably there early for another group due to meet in the same space logosoholics anonymous maybe."He definitely had a serious dose of logorrhoea!
I think most of us often lack the skills to tackle a difficult person - and in public, in front of others. As you said - the lady who did in your group spoke quietly but very directly - saying he was - annoying, rude, and intrusive. Quiet but deadly - and rightly so too! I think if I had sufficient skills to remain calm and controlled and speak about my annoyance in public in front of the group - most of them would have agreed with me. But it takes some skill to do that!!
Such a great story and review! I thought of similar interruptions I have had in my life, a couple times by people sitting in one of my classes, but never so rude. Now you can never think of the book without that memory, unfortunately, though some of it seems relevant!
I loved this book. I thought it was a good blend of issues, character and emotion. Your reviews are very engaging, Fionnuala.
Emily wrote: "...I still can’t believe it though..I would have been expecting a camera crew to leap out and surprise you all!"Or a bunch of pro-lifers protesting against Piñiero's book, Emily!
It's true that when he burst into the rant about abortion I did wonder for half a second if he'd known the book was pro-abortion and that's why he'd crashed our group. But that would have meant he'd been pretending earlier about not knowing people discussed 'stories', and he'd been altogether too convincing in that role alas.
Violeta wrote: "...Which only proves that sometimes real life serves as metaphor - I can imagine the smile on your face, even if you never allowed it to form."That's it exactly, Violeta—when real life offered such a perfect metaphor for Elena's misplaced certainties, and given how much I love a metaphor, how could I resist!
And that the metaphor came in the shape of a
Fionnuala, chairman sounded like someone overscreaming his own insecurities and doubts not to hear them. Somehow you made me look with renewed appreciation at the freedom and safety of speech Fifteen years of exchanges brought to the local reading club I attend in a closed room in the library, experiences like yours would render me even more tongue-tied on delicate and controversial subjects.
Laura wrote: "I think most of us often lack the skills to tackle a difficult person - and in public, in front of others. As you said - the lady who did in your group spoke quietly but very directly - saying he was - annoying, rude, and intrusive. Quiet but deadly - and rightly so too! ..."She was exactly that, Laura, quiet but deadly! It's a skill I'd like to cultivate…
Dave wrote: "...I thought of similar interruptions I have had in my life, a couple times by people sitting in one of my classes, but never so rude. Now you can never think of the book without that memory, unfortunately, though some of it seems relevant..."It's hard to deal with disruptive people, David, and I'm sure teachers and college professors get a lot of experience at it. This episode, happening as it did among a group of adults, was a new and shocking experience for me, but as I've said earlier in the comments, part of my brain was noting how useful and relevant it might turn out to be. And it turned out to be both :-)
Daniel wrote: "I loved this book. I thought it was a good blend of issues, character and emotion. Your reviews are very engaging, Fionnuala."Yes indeed, Daniel, a book full of issues but also full of character and emotion as you say. I admired the character Elena a lot, and thought her very well drawn. Not only did she suffer not only from a debilitating physical condition but also from a kind of emotional paralysis. I got the impression she might never have used the word 'love' to her daughter, and I even had the thought that Elena as a young woman might have been an Isobel...
Ilse wrote: "Somehow you made me look with renewed appreciation at the freedom and safety of speech Fifteen years of exchanges brought to the local reading club I attend in a closed room in the library..."A room of our own would be great:-)
I'm glad your group can close the door and have your discussions in peace, Ilse, because it is a bit inhibiting to discussion when strangers linger in our space—though most times we are not disturbed very much. This really was a one-off or at least I hope it was:-(
What a strange true story, Fionnuala, it felt almost like a fever dream. I was just in Rizzoli’s yesterday, looking at Erik Kessels,’ A Pictorial History of the Empty Chair, and now your story has merged in my mind with his work. I really enjoyed all of your review, and you’ve reminded me that this is high on my lists
Your group has demonstrated an incredible patience, Fionnuala! I would never know what is the best to try to engage with such person and explain to him the other point of view or just send him to the mental health professionals... But to try to keep going when he is crashing your conversation - an example of stoicism for sure:-) He seems to be an incredibly lonely person though.
Yes, I wondered if I was reading a story or a review because that is a GREAT story Fionnuala. I so admire the quiet solidarity of the group to not be taken hostage by the outside party and the irony of the title on "The Man Knows". Brilliant. I just bought a copy of Elena Knows and will be reading it soon, I'm very much looking forward to it.
Elyse wrote: "...You kind of rocked my little world and made me smile — I loved this book —And boy this type of gut-truthful sharing gets the blood flowing in my body. ( and maybe even heal my covid systems soon)..."
Wishing you better, Elyse, and if this review made you smile, I'm glad!
Jennifer wrote: "What a strange true story, Fionnuala, it felt almost like a fever dream. I was just in Rizzoli’s yesterday, looking at Erik Kessels,’ A Pictorial History of the Empty Chair, and now your story has merged in my mind with his work..."That's so interesting, Jennifer, especially as there's an empty chair on the cover of this book!
Though the chair has its own particular significance in the context of this story...
Katia wrote: "Your group has demonstrated an incredible patience, Fionnuala! I would never know what is the best to try to engage with such person and explain to him the other point of view..."I think we all quickly realised that we couldn't engage with him because there seemed to be no common ground between us. It was as if he were from another planet, one that hadn't heard of literature.
Even as I wrote that thought, Katia, I wondered if perhaps it is he who is in the majority in the world today, and we, the readers, who may be the 'spares' in the larger group.
Claire wrote: "Yes, I wondered if I was reading a story or a review because that is a GREAT story Fionnuala. I so admire the quiet solidarity of the group to not be taken hostage by the outside party and the irony of the title..."We were thrown but we weren't flattened, Claire! And yes, the man was so full of certainty that he mirrored Elena in that way—though Elena, her certainties aside, is very much a heroine in contrast to him. I hope you enjoy the book when you get to it. Come back here perhaps because otherwise I won't see your review...
Debra wrote: "Incredible story."Thanks, Debra.
How truly peculiar. Also intriguing and disturbing that the very concept of coming together to discuss a novel was that strange to him. Although when looked at from the outside (was he an alien?), I guess it is one of the weirder things we do as humans.
Yes, Emmkay, it may be that he, who doesn't read and knows nothing about books, may not be the odd one out but rather us, who meet often to talk about books (one of us even discussing them every day on goodreads), who may be the odd ones out…
Fionnuala wrote: " The guy was so...impervious, so dense. Your mind-boggling word describes the experience perfectly."Was he American? As one, I feel like I can safely say this represents a cultural norm for many men. Sounds like you were, as the younger ones say, mansplained.
Oh boy, Fi! Sounds like why one might want to gather and discuss things that are "made up" might just be one in a long string of ideas that are beyond this man's comprehension! The idiocy coupled with the unjustified surety of the man would've been too much for me to hold my tongue; I just can't suffer single-minded ignorance as well as I once could I'm afraid!Sorry your book group was gatecrashed but pleased it resulted in this review :)
If it is indeed real ... I'm ... I'm ... almost speechless.
The audacity is mind-boggling.