Traveller's Reviews > Snow Crash
Snow Crash
by
by
Did you ever have a kid at school who tried to appear smart and as the font of all knowledge by catching on to the tail-ends of things while listening to adults, absorbing some of it, and then spouting forth in front of an assembly of kids, his (or her, --let's be fair here) own regurgitation of what he had heard in the adult quarter, which would often make most of the other kids hang on to his/her every word simply because they themselves didn't have a clue what he was talking about?
Well, with Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson is that kid grown up. Stephenson latches on to all kinds of ideas and then regurgitates his reductionist, lopsided version of them in 'novel' form. The effect it had on this reader, is similar to what the screeching of chalk on a board does to most people; it set my teeth on edge.
There are so many lopsided, half-developed ideas with huge holes in logic in them, in this novel, that I cannot mention them all and remain as brief as I am sure that you, dear reader, would prefer me to be. Most of them pertain to Stephenson's lopsided extrapolation of how a virtual reality world would work, and his (to me loopy) ideas on neurolinguistics, ancient history and religions.
I was ambivalent about his snarky depiction of capitalism taken to the extreme. In the Snow Crash world, everything is privatised to the point that civil services such as police and prisons are privatised, and 'burbclaves' (small city states) have their own laws and services to the point that America doesn't have federal law anymore--yet there are still Feds! The latter institution is highly satirised by Stephenson, with regard to the typical bureaucratic yards of red tape and the tech and intel gathering overkill and so on. I admit that I found these bits humorous. I reckon Stephenson is, by their inclusion into a state that has no laws, and where the federal government seems merely a token from days gone by, saying that the FBI was superfluous to start with in any case, hah. But the overall effect of the Snow Crash background setting is that of an almost schizophrenic collage of bits and pieces stuck together to create a highly disjunctive world.
I enjoyed the action sequences and I very much enjoyed his two female protagonists; slightly less so the male one.
In this early novel, Stephenson shows faint glimmerings of promise. His clumsy explanations of the tech aspects of the world is jarring and often nonsensical, so the main little points of light lie with the action sequences and the characterization, the latter which I found not too bad since many of his stereotypes were slightly more rounded than actually stereotypical and many of the characters were relatively believable and even likeable in spite of the clumsiness. The hero Hiro, (or shall I say, Hiro Protagonist, the protagonist) did feel paper-thin however, like just a another piece of deus ex machina.
So, four stars for the fact that the novel passes the Bechdel test, and for having created the eminently likeable character Y.T.
But minus a star for the jarring racism and lack of cultural and ethnic sensitivity, and minus another star for setting my teeth on edge with his loopy ideas and his lopsided, cartoony projections into a future consisting of what feels like a world constructed of cardboard cutouts.
(And minus a virtual star for positing that patriarchal religions are more rational than matriarchal ones. )
Oh, and pretty important to me is to mention the subtraction of another virtual star for the sex with a fifteen year old girl, and her 'relationship' with a mass murderer more than twice her age.
Add half a star back for the humor.
Many people credit Stephenson with being the first person to think of a cyberverse in which humans could participate represented by avatars, but by his own admission, Lucasfilm with Habitat was there before him. ;)
In fact, it might not be an overstatement to say that Stephenson had pretty much gypped his idea off of developers Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar. (Please be my guest and Google them.)
In his book The Virtual Community: Homesteading on the Electronic Frontier, Howard Rheingold writes in Chapter Six:
In Austin, Texas, in 1990, at the First Conference on Cyberspace, I met the two programmers who created the first large-scale, multi-user, commercial virtual playground.
In their address to the conference, and the paper they later published, "The Lessons of Lucasfilm's Habitat," Chip Morningstar and F. Randall Farmer recounted their experience as the designers and managers of a virtual community that used computer graphics as well as words to support an online society of tens of thousands. Much of that conference in Austin was devoted to discussions of virtual-reality environments in which people wear special goggles and gloves to experience the illusion of sensory immersion in the virtual world via three-dimensional computer graphics.
Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar stood out in that high-tech crowd because the cyberspace they had created used a very inexpensive home computer, often called a toy computer, and a cartoonlike two-dimensional representation to create their kind of virtual world. Farmer and Morningstar had one kind of experience that the 3-D graphics enthusiasts did not have, however--the system they had designed, Habitat, had been used by tens of thousands of people.
Source: http://www.rheingold.com/vc/book/6.html
Papers presented by Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar :
http://www.stanford.edu/class/history...
Some fascinating thoughts on the internet as a marketplace:
http://www.stanford.edu/class/history...
PS. I relented and added a half star for making YT female and such a fun character and subtracted a quarter star for making her blonde, then added back a quarter star for the way in which NS made fun of the FBI bureaucracy.
Well, with Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson is that kid grown up. Stephenson latches on to all kinds of ideas and then regurgitates his reductionist, lopsided version of them in 'novel' form. The effect it had on this reader, is similar to what the screeching of chalk on a board does to most people; it set my teeth on edge.
There are so many lopsided, half-developed ideas with huge holes in logic in them, in this novel, that I cannot mention them all and remain as brief as I am sure that you, dear reader, would prefer me to be. Most of them pertain to Stephenson's lopsided extrapolation of how a virtual reality world would work, and his (to me loopy) ideas on neurolinguistics, ancient history and religions.
I was ambivalent about his snarky depiction of capitalism taken to the extreme. In the Snow Crash world, everything is privatised to the point that civil services such as police and prisons are privatised, and 'burbclaves' (small city states) have their own laws and services to the point that America doesn't have federal law anymore--yet there are still Feds! The latter institution is highly satirised by Stephenson, with regard to the typical bureaucratic yards of red tape and the tech and intel gathering overkill and so on. I admit that I found these bits humorous. I reckon Stephenson is, by their inclusion into a state that has no laws, and where the federal government seems merely a token from days gone by, saying that the FBI was superfluous to start with in any case, hah. But the overall effect of the Snow Crash background setting is that of an almost schizophrenic collage of bits and pieces stuck together to create a highly disjunctive world.
I enjoyed the action sequences and I very much enjoyed his two female protagonists; slightly less so the male one.
In this early novel, Stephenson shows faint glimmerings of promise. His clumsy explanations of the tech aspects of the world is jarring and often nonsensical, so the main little points of light lie with the action sequences and the characterization, the latter which I found not too bad since many of his stereotypes were slightly more rounded than actually stereotypical and many of the characters were relatively believable and even likeable in spite of the clumsiness. The hero Hiro, (or shall I say, Hiro Protagonist, the protagonist) did feel paper-thin however, like just a another piece of deus ex machina.
So, four stars for the fact that the novel passes the Bechdel test, and for having created the eminently likeable character Y.T.
But minus a star for the jarring racism and lack of cultural and ethnic sensitivity, and minus another star for setting my teeth on edge with his loopy ideas and his lopsided, cartoony projections into a future consisting of what feels like a world constructed of cardboard cutouts.
(And minus a virtual star for positing that patriarchal religions are more rational than matriarchal ones. )
Oh, and pretty important to me is to mention the subtraction of another virtual star for the sex with a fifteen year old girl, and her 'relationship' with a mass murderer more than twice her age.
Add half a star back for the humor.
Many people credit Stephenson with being the first person to think of a cyberverse in which humans could participate represented by avatars, but by his own admission, Lucasfilm with Habitat was there before him. ;)
In fact, it might not be an overstatement to say that Stephenson had pretty much gypped his idea off of developers Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar. (Please be my guest and Google them.)
In his book The Virtual Community: Homesteading on the Electronic Frontier, Howard Rheingold writes in Chapter Six:
In Austin, Texas, in 1990, at the First Conference on Cyberspace, I met the two programmers who created the first large-scale, multi-user, commercial virtual playground.
In their address to the conference, and the paper they later published, "The Lessons of Lucasfilm's Habitat," Chip Morningstar and F. Randall Farmer recounted their experience as the designers and managers of a virtual community that used computer graphics as well as words to support an online society of tens of thousands. Much of that conference in Austin was devoted to discussions of virtual-reality environments in which people wear special goggles and gloves to experience the illusion of sensory immersion in the virtual world via three-dimensional computer graphics.
Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar stood out in that high-tech crowd because the cyberspace they had created used a very inexpensive home computer, often called a toy computer, and a cartoonlike two-dimensional representation to create their kind of virtual world. Farmer and Morningstar had one kind of experience that the 3-D graphics enthusiasts did not have, however--the system they had designed, Habitat, had been used by tens of thousands of people.
Source: http://www.rheingold.com/vc/book/6.html
Papers presented by Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar :
http://www.stanford.edu/class/history...
Some fascinating thoughts on the internet as a marketplace:
http://www.stanford.edu/class/history...
PS. I relented and added a half star for making YT female and such a fun character and subtracted a quarter star for making her blonde, then added back a quarter star for the way in which NS made fun of the FBI bureaucracy.
Sign into Goodreads to see if any of your friends have read
Snow Crash.
Sign In »
Reading Progress
January 16, 2010
– Shelved
September 15, 2010
– Shelved as:
cyberpunk
February 11, 2011
– Shelved as:
sf
January 4, 2014
–
Started Reading
January 25, 2014
–
Finished Reading
April 16, 2014
– Shelved as:
two-and-a-half-stars
Comments Showing 1-50 of 54 (54 new)
message 1:
by
Jonfaith
(new)
Jan 25, 2014 11:49AM
Excellent.
reply
|
flag
good takedown. to me the best use of NS is to use his books purely for the loopy ideas and then get out before he starts 'building' on them.
Thanks! No more Ms Nice Traveller. >;)I'm not entirely giving up on Stephenson. I couldn't get into Anathem, but I might try Reamde and I've got The Diamond Age and The Baroque Cycle on the list.
But any more muddled exposition, and I'm kicking NS off of my TBR. One can still excuse this novel because it's from his very early work.
"Many people credit Stephenson with being the first person to think of a cyberverse in which humans could participate represented by avatars, but by his own admission, Lucasfilm with Habitat was there before him."
I actually think Gibson predates both with Neuromancer, without the razzle dazzle or terminology, but the same concept nevertheless.
I actually think Gibson predates both with Neuromancer, without the razzle dazzle or terminology, but the same concept nevertheless.
Traveller wrote: "Thanks! No more Ms Nice Traveller. >;)I'm not entirely giving up on Stephenson. I couldn't get into Anathem, but I might try Reamde and I've got The Diamond Age and The Baroque Cycle on the list."
Great review, Trav. If you want to give him one more try I would suggest Diamond Age. I think Reamde might make you hurl the book.
I still have yet to delve into Stephenson, but it's kinda nice to get an alternate perspective, so thanks for that! A lot of people seem to really like this book and this author.
Nice review. Cryptonomicon is the only stephenson I've read and it was kind of more style than substance.
It's interesting you thought the female characters were good, because it was exactly his weakness in this area that put me off him when I read Cryptonomicon…even though I quite liked some of the ideas that were in there. I keep thinking I should try him again.
Great review! I love the idea of a book which latches into the delightful weirdness that drips down from Second Life from time to time. But shame, you tell us that all is not well in this alternative universe. Oh boo. It sounded a lovely framework to build upon....
Sorry I didn't get to read this along with your book group. I meant to. I took it off the shelf and added it to my pile. Then again, after reading your review, maybe I'm not that sorry after all. It's back on the shelf now.
@ Callum:Thanks for mentioning Neuromancer, Callum! I've been eyeing Neuromancer for a long time, and now I have an excuse to go for it. :)@ Brian: Thanks, Brian, I will take your advice and approach Reamde with caution, and look at Diamond Age instead. Have you read any of the Baroque Cycle?
@ Kyle: Yes, like I mentioned, this is one of his early works, so, because he is popular, I won't write him off yet. Let's hope I'll be third time lucky.
@ Kaysap: Thanks! I've heard good things about Cryptonomicon; and from people who'd read both it and Snow Crash, they've declared that Cryptonomicon was the better one.@ Warwick: I liked his female characters very much. They were nicely varied, and though only one of them was likeable, that's ok, since his male characters weren't very likeable in any case, though he managed to make some of the 'baddies' quite likeable, ha. But that's good, because that means they're not completely paper-thin stereotypes.
@ Caroline: Thanks, Caroline. :) You might still enjoy the book if you take it with huge pinches of salt, but there is a lot of unpleasant racism in his depictions of the 'real' world that grated on me, and his idea of the metaverse didn't result in a richly imagined world, I must say. So his worldbuilding is probably what I enjoyed least.@ Melki: I know you can appreciate some humor, Melki. So after reading a few chapters I would have recommended it to you. When it started out, I was smiling and guffawing at the silliness of the 'pizza delivery in 30 minutes or else' idea and the globalized commercialization of the USA, which he presented with kind of comic book humor. But after a while he seemed to try and pose some of his ideas as serious stuff and the whole thing wilted for me.
But who knows, you might actually enjoy the psychedelic bits because my impression of your taste is that you like zany stuff. (As do I, but like I said, things started to fall flat for me as it progressed.)
Thanks Lynne. :)Dona, you have every right to thumb your nose at me and say "I told you so!" :P
Yes, you were right after all, it seems... Hey, I was wanting to like this, because I felt a bit of a wet rag and the odd one out, not liking Anathem... but sadly I cannot lie. Not in a review, anyway! ;)
Re-iterating the non-originalness of virtual worlds with avatars... Shadowrun got there with its "the Matrix" at least three years before Stephenson. And if you're slower to the scene than a pulp shared world RPG setting, you probably shouldn't boast......of course, nobody ever read Shadowrun. When 'The Matrix' came out, nobody mentioned the Matrix from Shadowrun (the first trilogy of which did the 'online computer program becomes sentient' thing way before Agent Smith). And when 'The Da Vinci Code' came out, I was seemingly the only one to notice that its plot was a rip-off of a Shadowrun novel from a decade earlier. Plus the Shadowrun novel had rocket launchers, Vatican nuclear weapons, mage-priests, and THAT Leonardo was immortal. And an elf. And the world's greatest computer hacker.
And yes, it was written quite badly, but it was still better than Dan Brown, so...
Wastrel wrote: "Re-iterating the non-originalness of virtual worlds with avatars... Shadowrun got there with its "the Matrix" at least three years before Stephenson. And if you're slower to the scene than a pulp s..."Interesting! Ah, it's a shooter now, which is why I hadn't known of it--and limited to Vista as well, it seems. I skipped Vista.
But the original concept seems nice, a cyberpunk with magic setting. Do you game? Did you ever play Arcanum?
The first graphical MMO RPG, it would appear, was Neverwinter Nights, which came out in 1991. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwin...
Oh, shadowrun's all sorts of things. I primarily know it as a novel series (47 novels in English, apparently 'over 30' in German (not translations and not available in English) and maybe some more in various other languages), of which I think I read 17, at an impressionable age.It's a fantastic concept, I think. Cyberpunk fantasy - as well as magic, there are elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, and dragons. The former four are mostly painfully mutated and ostracised humans. Particularly notable in my mind for the dragons - think a cross between Smaug and a suited bureaucrat, lawyer or executive (or in one case Bill Gates). It's all bonkers, of course, but there are many elements that could work brilliantly.
Unfortunately, the novels are standard 1990s RPG tie-in novels, which means that at best they're entertaining in a pulpy way, at worst they're just awful.
[The Da Vinci Code book is 'Black Madonna', fyi, came out in 1996. It makes the rest of the setting look sane by comparison]
Game? I used to play PnP RPGs, and later forum-based RPGs. Probably will try again in the future at some point, but a lot of the point of that sort of thing is having the right group to play with. Never played shadowrun itself, though I did once try porting the setting over into standard AD&D rules.
I don't tend to play computer games - I usually get bored with them, plus I am probably the worst player in the world (hand-eye coordination? reflexes? no and no. problem-solving ability, marginal). I do get irrational attachments to the games I do play, though (I think I still have a copy of Wolf3D around here somewhere...). I probably would enjoy CRPGs if I devoted the time to them, but I don't (plus I find myself railroaded by them too much). The games I really could completely immerse myself in are strategy games - I've had periods of spending way too much time playing both Civ and Total War. So I generally stay away from them...
[Favourite game by a mile: Planescape: Torment. Loved the setting even before the game came out. May have to break my 'never buy a new game' rule for either Numinera or Project Eternity.]
Arcanum: do you mean the RPG or the apparently unrelated CRPG? No, i've not played either - I was once vaguely aware of the existence of the RPG, and I now own a copy of the computer game because it was in a pack on GOG.com for an obscenely low price and I intend to play it one day... but haven't yet.
Dona: oh, yes, I don't doubt Neuromancer got there first. I seem to recall that Gibson was so furious about Shadowrun that he investigated sueing them, though that may be apocryphal.
Wastrel wrote: "Arcanum: do you mean the RPG or the apparently unrelated CRPG? No, i've not played either - I was once vaguely aware of the existence of the RPG, and I now own a copy of the computer game because it was in a pack on GOG.com for an obscenely low price and I intend to play it one day... but haven't yet..."
Yes, that one that you get on GOG. Of course for that kind of old-fashioned 'true' CRPG, one does not need physical skill or fast reflexes at all, since it's all about choices and how you build up your characters, and in this specific case, also on the dialogue options you choose!
Yeah, another strategy nut here. I love both the turn-based and the real-time ones. But you're completely right, they're such a time-sink, so I haven't invested in too many of them, and don't get time for them anymore. Way back, I used to be a real Heroes of Might and Magic junkie! (Disciples was also fun).
I am a Gibson girl myself and couldn't get through more then the first 50 pages of this one. Do read neuromancer though, and then all his others. I am actually quite fond of his non-sci-fi ones like Pattern Recognicion.
Jeanette (jema) wrote: "I am a Gibson girl myself and couldn't get through more then the first 50 pages of this one. Do read neuromancer though, and then all his others. I am actually quite fond of his non-sci-fi ones lik..."Glad to hear that, Jema! I plan to read him, definitely.
Trav - I enjoyed your review and always respect your thoughtful words, but I've been looking forward to this book for a long time and your review hasn't dented that enthusiasm one iota :-)
Clouds wrote: "Trav - I enjoyed your review and always respect your thoughtful words, but I've been looking forward to this book for a long time and your review hasn't dented that enthusiasm one iota :-)"Thanks, Clouds, I would be VERY interested to hear what you, a great Stephenson fan have to say about this book.
Egged on by comments by other posters on this thread, I have just started Gibson's Neuromancer. I'm already seeing a huge difference in tone and style of prose. Gibson comes across as a much more polished writer, which is interesting, since Neuromancer is his debut novel and Snow Crash is Stephenson's third novel.
Trav, your reviews are always wealthy vessels of combined information and insightful thoughts, but I simple love how you openly express the inner process you go through to rate the books you review. Astonishing capacity to analyze, compare and present wonderfully balanced conclusions. Brava.
Thanks, Dolors. :) Well after all, a review is to some extent an analysis of what we liked and/or disliked about a book, isn't it? I try to be fair with my ratings, and setting it all out in text helps with the process to get an overall view of the book to gel in my mind.
Clouds wrote: "Trav - I enjoyed your review and always respect your thoughtful words, but I've been looking forward to this book for a long time and your review hasn't dented that enthusiasm one iota :-)"You go! In your favour, Traveller got this entirely wrong :-)
Honestly, we've argued it out far past the point of diminishing returns. I really wanted her to like this (and if she disses Neuromancer, I don't know what I'll have to do!), but I believe Stephenson nailed the purely technological details. It was the linguistics that got pretty hairy.
But I'll challenge you on something else, Traveller: I don't think this passes the Bechdel test at all. There are only three female characters. Juanita, as I recall, never exchanges a word with either of the others. And Y.T. and her mother "talk" in the same sense that most mothers and fifteen year-olds talk, i.e. mother gives advice, daughter ignores it. There are a bunch of women in Rife's cult, but they're not up to real conversation, either.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "But I'll challenge you on something else, Traveller: I don't think this passes the Bechdel test at all. There are only three female characters. Juanita, as I recall, never exchanges a word with either of the others. And Y.T. and her mother "talk" in the same sense that most mothers and fifteen year-olds talk, i.e. mother gives advice, daughter ignores it. There are a bunch of women in Rife's cult, but they're not up to real conversation, either.."The Bechdel test is actually a very simple test to check if women are merely there in supportive roles in a text where a male features as the focus.
(For those who weren't sure, The Bechdel test asks whether a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man.)
I'd say that Snow Crash passes both the letter and the spirit of the test. Initially, yes, Y.T is a sort of supportive character, and in the sense that we never get to see Juanita's inner world and she is a bit of a disguised love-mate for the two 'Main man' hacker guys, she is indeed unfortunately not as rounded as we would wish. But her focus and her only goal in life is not to exist for men; she tends to be goal oriented and very independent and she goes of on missions of her own that has nothing to do with subservience to men or acting as a sex plaything for men.
Y.T.'s status as such is a bit more ambivalent, but hey, she's at the teenage stage where hormones are raging, so let's cut her a bit of slack. She idly sizes some men up in sexual ways very similar (but a lot more muted) to the way that teenage guys do with females, (and which teenage girls do tend to do) but not 'old' guys, which kind of figures, and that's ok.
But we do see a lot of how Y.T.'s mind works and how she ticks, and in fact, more so than with any of the male characters, and she's kinda got her own passion for her rollerblading and her Kourier job.
In actual fact, none of the women that I can think of off the top of my head exist just as an understudy or plaything for a man, so I feel quite satisfied in that regard.
But yeah, Derek and I have argued at length about the holes in Stephenson's logic, and we seem unable to budge one another, so... *shrug*.
Traveller wrote: "The Bechdel test is actually a very simple test to check if women are merely there in supportive roles in a text where a male features as the focus."I know that, but that's the point: it's a "simple" (and, even its author admits, simplistic—after all it was never meant to be taken too seriously) test, and I don't think the novel passes the simple test.
It does, otoh, have one great female character. Y.T. isn't a "man in drag", she acts in so many ways exactly as you would expect of a fifteen year-old who understands the world better than her mother, and she's fun!
Juanita was a let-down, though. She could have been a wonderful character, but we meet her briefly where she gives Hiro & Da5id a cryptic warning, then she disappears, only to reappear and save the day with a bunch of hand-waving.
Nah, I'd say Y.T.'s convo's with other women passes at the very least on a mechanical level. But yes, agreed about Juanita being underdeveloped. She's almost a mystery figure in the novel.
I did not care much for this book either (leaning towards 2 stars despite the awesome spark that Y. T. got). It seemed almost too simplistic despite its surface attempts at complexity, with too much of casual racism, and with too many scattered ideas that fizzled as the book neared its end. I found it exceedingly difficult to care by the end, in all honesty.
Nataliya wrote: "I did not care much for this book either (leaning towards 2 stars despite the awesome spark that Y. T. got). It seemed almost too simplistic despite its surface attempts at complexity, with too muc..."I was wondering what you thought of the book, but didn't want to nag you too much, since I know that you get periods of being very busy in RL, Nataliya!
So, I'm glad that you clocked in with some feedback.
It sounds like we have similar assessments of the novel.
I can't help wondering why the plans for the book to be a graphic novel didn't work out, since I think it would probably have worked better as a graphic novel.
A complex and well-argumented review for a novel that failed you on so many levels, for which I feel sorry, Trav (not that it's my book!). I can see you are able to find humorous parts in the novels that are not meant to be funny, just like with Eco's Pendulum! The problem is that I no longer want to read this novel - not that I was in any kind of hurry...
Ema wrote: "A complex and well-argumented review for a novel that failed you on so many levels, for which I feel sorry, Trav (not that it's my book!). I can see you are able to find humorous parts in the novel..."Ha, thanks, Ema. :)
I think in Eco's FP, he was actually trying to be funny in a sort of sarcastic way, and it often worked for me as in ha ha funny, it even had me chuckling in places, when he shows how silly a particular conspiracy theory is.
Stephenson also satirizes, though it's usually too sarcastic or too close to home to be funny. However, the bit where, for instance, the FBI employees have to spend exactly 15 mins. (they time the employees) to read a pages long office memo about toilet paper, was actually pretty funny in showing bureaucracy in a humorous light.
Nataliya wrote: "...too much of casual racism..."I just don't get this. Why is it wrong for an author to depict a world in which things haven't improved: in fact have taken two steps backwards? The US is still full of casual racism (lots of other places too, but Stephenson's only talking about a future US). As a character in a book I'm currently reading says (supposedly quoting Malcolm X, but I can't confirm that) "every blue-eyed thing is an American the minute they get off the boat, we been here four hundred years, we still waiting."
jarring racism and lack of cultural and ethnic sensitivity...huh. I didn't care for this book and it has been a while, but honestly I don't recall that.
I don't recall this either, but I am definitely down for you removing a star over it because just reading it gets me agitated:
(And minus a virtual star for positing that patriarchal religions are more rational than matriarchal ones. )
the nerve!
A lot of the racial stuff was characters using pejoratives for certain ethnic groups, but he also had some sneering remarks to make, and often places 'foreigners' in a deprecating light. Take for instance this bit:""New employee -- put his dinner in the microwave -- had foil in it -- boom!" the manager says.
Abkhazia had been part of the Soviet fucking Union. A new immigrant from Abkhazia trying to operate a microwave was like a deep-sea tube worm doing brain surgery. Where did they get these guys?
Weren't there any Americans who could bake a fucking pizza?
And for instance this:
"Manager kicks a rusty coffee can across the floor, caroming it expertly off her skin, so she can go to the bathroom.
"Where you from?" Y.T. asks.
"Tadzhikistan," he says.
A jeek. She should have known.
"Well, shitcan soccer must be your national pastime."
The manager doesn't get it. The MetaCops emit rote, shallow laughter. Papers are signed. Everyone else goes upstairs. On his way out the door, the manager turns off the lights; in Tadzhikistan, electricity is quite the big deal.
Really, quite uncalled for, I thought.
Then he also jokes with the way Japanese and Chinese speak English (I wonder how good his own Chinese and Japanese is?)
For instance, this is a song that a Japanese guy is rapping:
I'm Sushi K and I'm here to say
I like to rap in a different way
Look out Number One in every city
Sushi K rap has all most pretty
My special talking of remarkable words
Is not the stereotyped bucktooth nerd
My hair is big as a galaxy
Cause I attain greater technology
I like to rap about sweetened romance
My fond ambition is of your pants
So here is of special remarkable way
Of this fellow raps named Sushi K
The Nipponese talking phenomenon
Like samurai sword his sharpened tongue
Who raps the East Asia and the Pacific
Prosperity Sphere, to be specific
Sarariman on subway listen
For Sushi K like nuclear fission
Fire-breathing lizard Gojiro
He my always big-time hero
His mutant rap burn down whole block
Start investing now Sushi K stock
It on Nikkei stock exchange
Waxes; other rappers wane
Best investment, make my day
Corporation Sushi K
Coming to America now
Rappers trying to start a row
Say "Stay in Japan, please, listen!
We can't handle competition!"
U.S. rappers booing and hissin'
Ask for rap protectionism
They afraid of Sushi K
Cause their audience go away
He got chill financial backin'
Give those U.S. rappers a smackin'
Sushi K concert machine
Fast efficient super clean
Run like clockwork in a watch
Kick old rappers in the crotch
He learn English total immersion
English/Japanese be mergin'
Into super combination
So can have fans in every nation
Hong Kong they speak English, too
Yearn of rappers just like you
Anglophones who live down under
Sooner later start to wonder
When they get they own rap star
Tired of rappers from afar
So I will get big radio traffic
When you look at demographic
Sushi K research statistic
Make big future look ballistic
Speed of Sushi K growth stock
Put U.S. rappers into shock"
I imagine NS must have thought writing characters that are shallow stereotypes like this and making fun of them, is hilarious, but strangely enough I didn't find it funny, and neither did I find the Hong-Kong franchulate owner's welcome sign very funny, which I can't seem to find right now, but in any case, there are lots of examples where NS pokes this kind of fun at ethnicities, which I, frankly, did not find funny at all.
I just don't see it as Stephenson "poking fun" at anybody. It looks like future-Americans being unable to see beyond the stereotypes. Just like current Americans.Sushi K speaks Japanglish because that's all the American promoters are interested in. I don't know if we've ever had Japanese rap in North America, 'coz I don't care for rap, but there were a couple of Japanese acts made the charts in the 60s, and they were exactly the same sort of stereotype.
The whole point of the Abkhazian blowing up the microwave is to show that even Y.T.'s a bigot. Who hasn't put something with foil in a microwave and watched the sparks? But if you or I did it everyone would laugh at our forgetfulness. In the Snow Crash America, if an immigrant does it, it's because they don't have a clue how to use a microwave.
Lastly, I read "in Tadzhikistan, electricity is quite the big deal" as a poke against Americans. Because in the US (& Canada) it's a national pastime to complain about the cost of electricity, but nobody is going to cut down on their use of it! I spend my life turning out lights — and being made to feel a bit silly about it. (The rest of that passage is purely about Americans not having a clue about how important soccer is to the rest of the world).
Hmmm, if you say so Derek. I'm afraid I'm not quite so forgiving towards the author, but let's leave it at that. :)But just btw, I must point out to you that the bit with the foil in the microwave was Hiro thinking that about the Abkhazians, not Y.T.
Sorry, nitepickerish and all, you know how it is...
(Can't help ourselves and mumblemumble)
Traveller wrote: "But just btw, I must point out to you that the bit with the foil in the microwave was Hiro thinking that about the Abkhazians, not Y.T."Oh, right. I was thinking it immediately preceded the scene in the jail, but it's in the opening scene.
I have no problem with a book that illustrates the sexism/racism/classism/homophobia/whatever of certain characters or a certain milieu. same goes for having characters who are sneeringly contemptuous of the world, who do terrible things but don't see it that way, etc, etc. my problem is not in their depiction, but when I feel the author actually agrees with those sentiments. it is a rare thing but I certainly have come across it. I don't remember that in Snow Crash but it has been many years so I'm not saying it wasn't there either.I've had that problem, that displeasure at the intentions or personal perspective of the author, with a number of books:
The Swimming-Pool Library
The Magician King
The Confusions of Young Törless
A Pirate's Love
Faggots
The Cellar
Jerk
Ghost
Story of O
American Psycho
Gargoyle Girls of Spider Island
Black Butterflies
Dr. Adder
But the point is not that he just depicts racist characters, but that he sketches some characters in a racist light.Example:
"Character says: "You damn thievin' nigga! I'm gonna bash your single brain cell through the back of your skull!"
That is the character being racist, not necessarily the author. But when the author depicts characters of certain ethnicities in a derogatory and stereotypical way, that is the author being racist.
In Snow Crash, The only
Also, Chinese and Japanese characters are more frequently depicted in some negative way than not.
It's like an author whose only female characters are sex object or whose only black characters are thieves and murderers. I'm not sure if I'm making the difference between the two scenarios clear.
mark wrote: "you are saying what I am saying!"Cool. If you ever re-read this, you might see what I mean as to how it applies to SC, the second time around that you read it.
But I just read it for the second time, and I can see how it can be interpreted that way, but I also know I've read a whole lot of Neal Stephenson, and I can't see any sign that the author is a racist. And since one of the major sub-themes in this story is racism, I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that it IS the author speaking.(and I don't think we see any East Europeans — I'm not sure about Europeans at all)
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "(and I don't think we see any East Europeans — I'm not sure about Europeans at all)..."Well, however you would describe the Abkhaz people then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz_p...
Sort of a mixture of East Europe, West Asia, and the Middle East? For some reason I've always viewed Russia as part of Europe rather than Asia, perhaps because of Russian literature which has always had a more European flavor to me than Asian, and because a large percentage of Russians are caucasian, including the Abkhazians?
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "And since one of the major sub-themes in this story is racism, I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that it IS the author speaking.."I wonder, if you read a translated work by a Japanese person in which he often ridicules some or other aspect of, let's say British people, or Americans -let's say he portrays every single American in the story as an illiterate, trigger-happy, gum-chewing redneck, and his characters all make snide, derogatory remarks about America and the Americans, wouldn't you get the suspicion that perhaps he was unjustly stereotyping the American people?
Oh yes, and he even takes some hard shots at Latin -America as well.Let's do a thought experiment.
Let's say that the lascivious Tadzhiki who was getting the hots for Y.T. had been a Zimbabweian or a Haitian , would your reaction still have been the same? If the remarks had been about a Congolese or an Ethiopian kicking around a shitcan or to whom electricity is a big deal? Because guess what, for many of the latter sanitation and electricity is a big deal, because they don't have any.
All, right, let's say I give him the benefit of the doubt based on your reassurance that he doesn't appear racist in his other works, Derek, then he's still insensitive and clumsy.Racism is a sensitive and flammable issue, and one either needs to write about it with sensitivity or with the passion of your own convictions.
Shooting out snide remarks at ethnicities in passing, and portraying them as stereotypes, just feels un-classy to me.
Paul Bryant and I were discussing just the other day about how golliwogs have been banned yet again. Why? Because people feel that they are a stereotype, and depicting anyone or anything in stereotypes is the new unPC.
For instance, how cool would it be to depict ALL Germans as Nazi's?
It's simply unfair.



