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On Queen Guinevere, by Sir Gawain
-Conte du Graal, Chretien de Troyes

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-Conte du Graal, Chretien de Troyes
Hey, I found something disturbing that needs to be addressed regarding Guinevere's intervention with Morgan and Guiomar: Gwen was afraid Arthur would find out about Guiomar and Morgan, which she wanted separated them. She was scared for her cousin, and was less hung up about Morgan's honor. I need some illumination about this.
Yeah I mean you gotta put yourself in Guinevere’s place somewhat. She is a new bride and probably doesn’t know her husband that well yet, and the positions of the few family members she brought with her to court are probably quite tenuous (Guinevere has practically no allies at court before lancelot, it’s something I think about a lot). As queen she is responsible for the chastity of her ladies and the fact that her own cousin might have compromised that must feel like a betrayal. Maybe she knows Arthur just about enough to know that he is unlikely to take his anger out on Morgan and that it is more likely to fall back on her cousin ? Morgan isn’t married so there isn’t an angry husband there to pressure Arthur into a harsher punishment for morgan ? Idk in arthuriana the pattern seems to be that when an unmarried woman’s chastity is discovered to be compromised the male family members will go after the man responsible to kill him and shun or ostracise the woman. In the premiere continuation for ex the mother of one of Gawains illegitimate children still lives with and is cared for by her family but it is clear that they are mad at her (her brother does repeatedly call her a whore) but they want to murder Gawain. Guingambresil imprisons his sister but plans to murder Gawain, etc etc ad infinitum. The situation seems very different if the woman is married and the crime becomes adultery. Could be something to do with the threat adultery poses to things like inheritance bc an illegitimate child could pass as legitimate but if the woman isn’t married that threat is removed so it’s considered a lesser offence in the Arthurian world (which was modelled on the medieval world but has its own norms etc I’m not sure how much this distinction held in the real medieval world (the little I know from legal records is that the offending woman was often beaten / subjected to violence too but it depends))
Tldr idk could be that Guinevere know Arthur has a soft spot for Morgan and suspects that his anger will be directed towards her and her family instead ? I’m not too sure it’s a good question!
Oh the huge exception to this is the mother of Arthur the lesser who i think is killed ? But it’s established her father is a monster who assaulted his son’s wife so it’s kind of framed as this horrible isolated crime (I checked and it looks like she was killed for an unrelated matter ???)
Yeah... I had feeling it was this.
As much as modern Arthuriana likes to pretend Arthur and the other guys are totally nice boys by our standards, these are still medieval people and have very medieval attitudes. I know about Lai de Cor, where the chastity test appears and Arthur immediately springs to kill Guinevere when test is failed. Gawain and Ywain stop him atleast.
Yeah Arthur comes across remarkably badly in the lays :/
In the livre d’artus Guinevere tells Guillomard that Arthur AND Gawain will come after him if they ever find out
Hi there. I'm working on a King Arthur project, and I can't really decide on my Mordred origin. I have a few different ideas, but I'm having trouble choosing which one. As one of Morgause's #1 shooters, I figured you might have some insight on this. Here are the different versions I've considered:
I don't really want to combine Morgan and Morgause, but I kind of like the "Morgan taking Guinevere's form" angle simply because it evokes Uther and Ygrayne. But also I feel like if Morgan rapes Arthur, it removes redemption options for her. The Morgan angle also allows for a little more insight into her betrayal of Uriens if he does something shitty about the baby, but it feels kinda covoluted.
Thanks for any insight!
First things first, to dissect your inquiry, we have to understand why Mordred is Arthur's son in the first place. (Because he used to be a nephew before this particular change)
It is my belief that the reason why Mordred is made Arthur's son in literature - and why I detest "Evil (and Abusive) Morgause" trope and its sister trope, "Morgan le Fay as Mordred's mom" - is because Mordred as product of incest is ultimately about Arthur's actions and how that leads to his tragic fall and the destruction of Logres under the religious framework of the Medieval narratives.
Remember that Arthur is a divinely appointed king. Via the Sword in the Stone, Arthur enjoys the rulership of the kingdom through God's providence, as pointed out a couple of times in Vulgate Cycle. That incest with Morgause, especially in Vulgate, is how the Medieval writers justified that collapse of Arthur's realm under the watch of God through the loss of that mandate by his own personal sin, that being willing fornication with a married woman, that unbeknownst to him was actually his own sister.
This is why having Arthur be the victim of trickery or having Morgause/Morgan being evil to him through Mordred is antithetical to the purpose of Mordred being Arthur's son. Because doing so absolves Arthur of the moral responsibility of siring Mordred, which would leave the Fall of Logres an unjustified fate for Arthur. If Arthur didn't commit incest, then Logres wouldn't collapse and Arthur would be free to war against Lancelot indefinitely.
Mordred's incestuous birth also conveniently explains why he would even betray Arthur in the first place. In the medieval mind, his improper birth means he is morally deficient in some capacity, leading to a predilection for evil. This was a handy way for Medieval writers to give Mordred an understandable motive while avoid giving him a sympathetic characterization (because I imagine Medieval audiences wouldn't want to feel sorry for the final villain. Notice how there's little material on Mordred's personal adventures outside of a couple of adventures in Vulgate)
With that out of the way, here's my assessment:
Oh this was me. I dunno why I hit anonymous on the ask thing.
Definitely leaning more towards 2 or 5 now. Mentioning the politics/intrigue angle has definitely piqued my interest.
Thanks for the help!
@jumpythespacebeaver you're welcome!
This was a bit of hassle for me to push out because, as I understand it, the topic of the hows and whys of Mordred's conception is a complex issue that would take me a whole post rambling over multiple points, from the characterization of Arthur and his kingship, to how it relates to Lancelot's inclusion as a story element in the Fall of Camelot.
So I had bit of trouble figuring out what to say while keeping it concise and staying on topic. Haha 😅
Please, can you explain more about Morfydd?
Morfydd is the daughter of Urien of Rheged and sister of Owain in Welsh mythology. She is the lover of Cynon ap Clydno.
Both Owain and Morfydd are Urien's children by his Otherworldly wife, Modron daughter of Avallach.
As Urien of Rheged and his son Owain are the antecedents of the romance's Urien of Gorre and Ywain, some believe Modron is connected to the figure of Morgan le Fay in Arthurian Legend, either as a prototype character or if Morgan's marriage to Urien was in anyway inspired by Modron's own marriage.
As the daughter of the original Welsh Urien and his supernatural spouse, it's no leap in logic to imagine that Morfydd could be a potential daughter to Morgan in a story.
Hi there. I'm working on a King Arthur project, and I can't really decide on my Mordred origin. I have a few different ideas, but I'm having trouble choosing which one. As one of Morgause's #1 shooters, I figured you might have some insight on this. Here are the different versions I've considered:
I don't really want to combine Morgan and Morgause, but I kind of like the "Morgan taking Guinevere's form" angle simply because it evokes Uther and Ygrayne. But also I feel like if Morgan rapes Arthur, it removes redemption options for her. The Morgan angle also allows for a little more insight into her betrayal of Uriens if he does something shitty about the baby, but it feels kinda covoluted.
Thanks for any insight!
First things first, to dissect your inquiry, we have to understand why Mordred is Arthur's son in the first place. (Because he used to be a nephew before this particular change)
It is my belief that the reason why Mordred is made Arthur's son in literature - and why I detest "Evil (and Abusive) Morgause" trope and its sister trope, "Morgan le Fay as Mordred's mom" - is because Mordred as product of incest is ultimately about Arthur's actions and how that leads to his tragic fall and the destruction of Logres under the religious framework of the Medieval narratives.
Remember that Arthur is a divinely appointed king. Via the Sword in the Stone, Arthur enjoys the rulership of the kingdom through God's providence, as pointed out a couple of times in Vulgate Cycle. That incest with Morgause, especially in Vulgate, is how the Medieval writers justified that collapse of Arthur's realm under the watch of God through the loss of that mandate by his own personal sin, that being willing fornication with a married woman, that unbeknownst to him was actually his own sister.
This is why having Arthur be the victim of trickery or having Morgause/Morgan being evil to him through Mordred is antithetical to the purpose of Mordred being Arthur's son. Because doing so absolves Arthur of the moral responsibility of siring Mordred, which would leave the Fall of Logres an unjustified fate for Arthur. If Arthur didn't commit incest, then Logres wouldn't collapse and Arthur would be free to war against Lancelot indefinitely.
Mordred's incestuous birth also conveniently explains why he would even betray Arthur in the first place. In the medieval mind, his improper birth means he is morally deficient in some capacity, leading to a predilection for evil. This was a handy way for Medieval writers to give Mordred an understandable motive while avoid giving him a sympathetic characterization (because I imagine Medieval audiences wouldn't want to feel sorry for the final villain. Notice how there's little material on Mordred's personal adventures outside of a couple of adventures in Vulgate)
With that out of the way, here's my assessment:
At the end of the previous chapter, King Arthur asked King Mark's brother, Sir Baldwin, to tell him a story. Sir Baldwin accepts to do so. This chapter ten (of "The Feasts...") involves a delirious knight, an unknown knight and fever dreams. Let's dive in! 🙌🏻
So, in chapter ten (coincidentally 😆) of the first part, Lady Anglides talked about leaving her wounded husband behind (and him being sent secretly away by Isond to heal elsewhere). This chapter continues the story but from the point of view of Sir Baldwin. As it turns out, Sir Baldwin was sent to the care of a holy hermit (and it seems that his wife and son accompanied him there). After healing, Sir Baldwin decides to go to Camelot so he can reunite with his wife and son.
Modern retellings overestimate how much beef Morgan has with Arthur and severely underestimate how much beef she has with Guinevere
annoying when shows set in the medieval period have the women with thier hair just long and unstyled and out . girl go put on your wimple girl 🤦♀️
like there are so many fun medieval hair and headgear options, it's so boring just seeing loose beachy waves meant to appeal to 21st century beauty standards
put that hot prince in a gay little hood with an ostrich feather or so help me god
More folklore from Sewingshields, Northumbria
Arthur's sons are more like the Orkney siblings than I realize. I bet you the eldest son was Amr.
I have been reading the medieval story ‘Merlin’ by Robert de Boron. (like merlin from the king arthur stories) Merlin’s backstory is absolutely wild in this version. He was almost the antichrist, but god stopped all that. BUT… god also let Merlin keep the sick demon powers…
I think this is probably my favorite part from it:
(My own slightly modified interpretation, obviously, for increased humor)
(Source: The Welsh Fairy Book, by W. Jenkyn Thomas)
This is something I haven't encountered before; Gwerddonau Llion and Rhys the Deep.
It is a recurring theme that the Celtic Otherworld, or the "Land of the Faerie", is often depicted as a remote paradisical island in the sea, in keeping with the association of fairies with bodies of water. Analogues in other Brythonic legends include Arthurian Legend's ever-iconic Avalon. In this story, Gwerddonau Llion demonstrates the typical mirage-like qualities of magical places, making approach very tricky.
"Rhys the Deep" is a personage I haven't heard before. Given that the fairies are referred to as his "children", he is presumably an ancestor figure similar to Donn and Llyr, but for fairies. I wonder what his relationship is to Arawn and Gwyn...
Rhys' epithet "Deep" (Ddwfn in Welsh), could infer to his presumed home in the Otherworld, which in Welsh lore is referred to as Annwfn ("the Very Deep"), or more speculatively, some kind of intense feeling or "deeper" meaning, as Ddwfn also means "Profound". Incidentally, the name "Rhys" etymologically meant something like "Ardor" or "Fiery (Warrior)".
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(Source: Historia rerum Anglicarum, by William of Newburgh)
I love the lines "he makes the little finger (of Arthur) more powerful than loins of Caesar/Alexander" lol 🤣
Also, interesting that Geoffrey is surnamed "Arthur", at least according to William.
Obscure Arthurian Facts #2
While Atlantis is never mentioned in previctorian Arthurian texts, contrary to what Marvel Comics and some occultists would have you believe, there is a King of the Sea, and his name is Priure. He rules over a kingdom of fish people. And they have a special sort of horse they use for jousting, because it's Arthurian legend, so of course there's jousting.